Nickel vs. Silver plating

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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by PMeuph »

bloke wrote:
no, drinking out of a soldered teapot day-in and day-out may not be the best idea, but the v-a-s-t majority of homes throughout the world with indoor plumbing feature lead-soldered joints. (Someday, I'm sure they'll discover that the crappy substitute solder that plumbers are required to use today is more toxic than lead solder...and they'll "discover" that not so they can put a stop to its use, but - rather - so they can tax its use.)


bloke "When millions of silly-billies view carbon as a poison, it naturally follows that 'everything else in the world' would be considered to be toxic-to-infinity."

1. I don't know about the home construction in your neck of the woods, but around here I think PVC pipes (or some variant of pvc) have become the norm. (I assume because there is a higher profit margin for both the dealer and the plummer as no soldering is necessary)

2.Although this might not happen much were you live, but here due to many factors (Heating system failures, using BBQ's inside, suicide...etc) Carbon Monoxide deaths are quite prevalent... I think there are *some* people who confuse carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and carbon... Since there is a natural gas furnace about 10 feet away from my bedroom, i'm glad it has to be inspected every so often...
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

Neptune wrote: I have a question - although only a few tubas are nickel-plated, many have nickel silver fittings including rotary valve levers where fingers touch. Are these also a health risk???
From what I've seen while googling around, I would hazard a guess that most tuba players won't react to Nickel-silver paddles, triggers etc., but a particularly allergy-prone player (especially one that doubles on bass guitar) could possibly develop enough sensitivity to run into problems.

For a definitive answer, first check for risks with a dermatologist, then check for liabilities with a lawyer; Otherwise, the web will give you many answers, and the truth may even be in there, somewhere.

Nickel plating is probably only a hazard to brass techs and to those players who, like me, have been previously sensitized by prolonged contact with jewelry and/or clothes fasteners - my problem first showed up as blisters under the buckle of a watch strap. Unfortunately, there are many such people - estimates vary from one per thousand to one in eight of the general population (I even saw one guess on a clarinet site that said "most people are slightly allergic, and thirty percent will develop problems"). One dermatology research paper estimates 8% of women (because of their more frequent use of jewelry) and 0.8% of men, but notes that the percentage of men is increasing.

If the new regulations are effective they may prevent further increase in the prevalence of allergies, but don't hold your breath; cheap jewelry that meets the limits when new will probably start to leak Nickel as it wears, and the risk isn't obvious - if I thought about it at all, I probably assumed my watch strap had a brass buckle, but it turned out to be gold-plated, with the usual coat of Nickel under the gold. Once the allergy is acquired, it can't be fixed (in fact with continued exposure it will only get worse), so the number of players at risk is bound to go up, never down.

I have seen postings about reactions to lip-plates on flutes, and to ligatures and keys on clarinets, and from a tuba-player about rashes on his wrists after playing a St. Pete (as well as the more common reactions to mouthpieces). Mentions of allergic reactions on the fingers are rarer. Maybe the tougher skin on the hand's friction surface is less sensitive ? Googling around, I came up with plenty of problems among woodwinds (I gather Nickel-silver keys and ligatures are common, and sometimes cause problems), and was also surprised to find problems among string players (from Nickel in metal-wound strings, and from metal fittings on chin-rests). Some bass guitarists seem to get it bad, probably because Nickel-free strings don't work too well on an electric bass.

On the related solder topic: tuba players who don't drink beer from their tubas too often are probably safe from that source of lead poisoning. Fruit-juice, with its higher acid content, would be a lot more risky - stay away from demon fruit-juice. Actually, fruit juice is usually only risky in metal jugs with soldered seams, or in lead-glazed pottery (which you don't see much of, in these regulated times).
Last edited by MikeW on Sat May 26, 2012 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

bloke wrote:(sorry) One of my pet peeves is "the entire civilized world is a toxic jungle" attitudes.
Amen to that. Unfortunately, for those of us who have already been sensitized, Nickel really is unpleasantly toxic, albeit not immediately life threatening. Its like full-fat cream - great, until your doctor starts talking cholesterol counts.
no, drinking out of a soldered teapot day-in and day-out may not be the best idea, but the v-a-s-t majority of homes throughout the world with indoor plumbing feature lead-soldered joints.

Or even lead water pipes. Which is why mineral salts are added to civic water supplies, to prevent leaching of lead. There are even regulations about safe levels....(ok, probably not for private wells)
Of course, when some dumb truck driver dumps twenty tons of aluminum sulphate into the filter beds instead of the stockpile, you get non-voluntarily inducted into a great research opportunity.
It's a wonder that (considering all of the exposed lead-soldered edges) that there are not more brass players dead from lead poisoning.

And there was I, assuming that all the exposed soldered edges were inside the tuba, where I couldn't chew on them even if I wanted to.
If you're looking for an on-topic post, my early one (related to nickel plating and labor/manufacturing costs) will be the one that you're seeking.
Also amen. Having the choice of cheap is good, as long the risks are spelled out. But if ever I buy a St. Pete, it will be in lacquer.
bloke "When millions of silly-billies view carbon as a poison, it naturally follows that 'everything else in the world' would be considered to be toxic-to-infinity."

Carbon can be dangerously toxic in use - a hibachi in the dining room has been known to gas an entire dinner party. Which is one of the reasons you keep your barbecue outdoors, and fresh batteries in the carbon-monoxide alarm, isn't it ?
Last edited by MikeW on Sat May 26, 2012 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Postby Neptune » Sat May 26, 2012 12:48 am
I never knew that Nickel plated tubas should carry a heath warning attached! :shock:
I found this on a banjo-related site - I guess banjo armrests are often Nickel plated, judging by adverts on the web.

Looks like the lawyers may be scenting blood in the water :-
http://www.nechville.com/armrests3.php

Is Your Armrest Causing Nickel Allergy?


After playing a nickel-plated flute, an American girl recently suffered an extended allergic reaction around her mouth and lips. Could this have been prevented?

Whenever there's direct and prolonged contact of nickel with the skin, there's also the potential for Nickel Allergic Contact Dermatitis (NACD). Although not life-threatening, NACD is a lifelong allergy. Estimates suggest that between 10-15 percent of all American women and 1-2 percent of U.S. men are sensitized to nickel and thus at risk of suffering from NACD. A disappointing finding, considering this ailment is avoidable.

Nickel-plating is fairly inexpensive and creates a better price structure in the marketplace. And while creating nickel-plated consumer products intended for prolonged contact with the skin isn't illegal in the U.S., that's not a defense in a product liability or 'failure to warn' case. So what can be done? A good start might be to limit the number of consumer reactions by restricting the nickel to the body of the instrument, using alternative materials or coatings for keys, mouthpieces, valves, etc. Existing products should [include (?)] appropriate language identifying the possibility of reactions in the product literature and packaging.For now, the Consumer Product Safety Commission supports voluntary industry undertakings as an alternative to regulation.

This information was provided by the Nickel Institute. For more information, log on to http://www.nickelinstitute.org" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank.
Possibly a straw in the wind: If all of the above came from the Nickel Institute, then it looks like packing a health warning along with Nickel-plated instruments may indeed be a wise precaution, at least in the USA. I believe the automobile industry has already moved to limit their liability by adopting the limits set out in the EU jewelry regs.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by fairweathertuba »

I believe some instruments have lacquer over the nickel silver valve paddles as a precaution. I have never heard of anyone developing a sensitivity to the paddles which has already previously been mentioned. After reading this thread I don't think I would buy a nickel plated instrument though.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

fairweathertuba wrote:... After reading this thread I don't think I would buy a nickel plated instrument though.
Don't forget that Nickel is only a problem if you have been previously sensitized. Estimates of how many people are sensitive vary a lot, but the highest I've seen comes from the Nickel Institute (so it deserves to be taken seriously) :
Estimates suggest that between 10-15 percent of all American women and 1-2 percent of U.S. men are sensitized to nickel and thus at risk of suffering from NACD
If you haven't had any previous episodes of Nickel allergy, the odds have to be fifty to one (or better) in favor of having no problems for a man, and about seven to one for a woman (women are at higher risk of sensitization because of body-piercing, eg. for ear-rings, but men may be catching up).

Also, most wind players report trouble with mouthpieces; I only found one or two mentions of trouble with arms and wrists on tubas, but on banjo, where Nickel-plated arm-rests are usual, there seems to be quite an active market for wrist-bands, or for arm-rests in wood, leather, plastic, or alternative plating.

If you have had previous episodes, some people can get away with it by minimizing skin-contact with the Nickel (eg by wearing wrist-bands), and by washing hands and face to remove Nickel residue after playing, but lacquer is probably a safer bet.
Last edited by MikeW on Tue May 29, 2012 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

bloke wrote:a nickel for (not) your thoughts
Very generous; thank you kindly, young sir. But the regulated price is only one penny.

Here's a thought for free: Tape it to your wrist - if your hand turns black and falls off, you may have an allergy. If it doesn't, you're probably safe with a Nickel plated <insert fantasy here>.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by PMeuph »

MikeW wrote:
bloke wrote:a nickel for (not) your thoughts
Very generous; thank you kindly, young sir. But the regulated price is only one penny.
Maybe Bloke is aware of Canadian politics:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/ ... -mint.html" target="_blank
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by Tubazilla »

I'll have to back up the idea that it comes from sensitizing to other sources and then transfers to the tuba. I first had a reaction to a belt buckle, then the wrist watch and class ring. Now, it's on arms where it comes in contact with the nickel plated parts of my 186. Oddly enough my fingers have not broken out. I think it has to deal with how sensitive the skin is.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by Rick Denney »

There is nearly no substance, it would seem, that someone isn't allergic to.

Nickel is a part of many steel alloys, including all stainless steels. Even the stuff used for medical implants has 13-15% nickel in it. Yet I've never heard of anyone having an allergic reaction to stainless steel. So, is it pure nickel? Nickel in some particular alloy?

My wife only wears gold earrings, as a precaution. Most women I've known thought of that as a standard prevaution, but perhaps it's too expensive when one has 45 piercings all over their body. Most metals are reactive and oxidize easily. Personally, I have a hard time generating a lot of sympathy for people who insert all manner of metal objects through their skin in a self-mutilation ritual.

Some get contact dermatitis from silver, and many do from brass. Those people seem to have come up with strategies vis a vis playing the tuba, without help from a mothering regulatory body of some sort. There are many excellent tubas that have no exposed nickel on them at all, and others where those bits don't come in contact with skin. But the nickel on the silver parts of Miraphones isn't pure nickel, it's a nickel-silver alloy. Is it the alloy that's the problem? (Common nickel-silver has less nickel in it than does stainless steel--about 10%.)

If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.

I have copper pipes and I'm sure at least some of the solder holding them together has lead in it. So, I take reasonable precautions to keep lead down well below the risk floor: I don't draw drinking or cooking water from the hot tap, and I let the water run for a minute or so before using it.

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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

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Rick Denney wrote:There is nearly no substance, it would seem, that someone isn't allergic to......
Although not a substance... the thought of practicing gives me hives.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by TubaRay »

A huge "Amen" to Rick's post(above). Why do so many feel that none of us can take some care for ourselves?
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

Rick Denney wrote: Nickel is a part of many steel alloys, including all stainless steels. Even the stuff used for medical implants has 13-15% nickel in it. Yet I've never heard of anyone having an allergic reaction to stainless steel. So, is it pure nickel? Nickel in some particular alloy?
According to the site where I found the EU regulations, metallic Nickel is harmless until it combines with sweat to produce Nickel Sulphate, which is water soluble; The allergic reaction is to Nickel released from the surface, not to the Nickel content of the bulk material. The Nickel in most grades of stainless steel is contained behind a corrosion-proof "passive layer" of chromium oxides, so it does not react with sweat, and these grades are (mostly) safe for skin contact. Unfortunately, this is less true of 303-grade steel (the most readily machinable grade).

I finally found some solid numbers on this topic: 303 steel releases some Nickel when steeped in synthetic sweat containing Chlorides, but not enough to exceed EU regulations. When test-patches (steel discs) were applied to volunteers already known to be sensitized, and left in place for two days, only 14% of the volunteers reacted:
http://www.euro-inox.org/pdf/health/The ... ice_EN.pdf

To my mind this means that, even if you are already sensitized, you still have at least a one-in-seven chance of getting away with prolonged contact with 303 steel, and your chances have to improve with shorter exposures, especially if you clean the exposed area carefully after each exposure (to remove any lingering Nickel Sulphate).
If you are not already known to be sensitized, the odds improve to about one in seven hundred.

If you are one of the unlucky few that still react, consider a titanium mouthpiece, or get one of Bloke's "H-Kote" rims .
But the nickel on the silver parts of Miraphones isn't pure nickel, it's a nickel-silver alloy. Is it the alloy that's the problem? (Common nickel-silver has less nickel in it than does stainless steel--about 10%.)
As far as I can understand these things, "Nickel-Silver" is usually an alloy of Nickel and Copper, with no actual Silver content, and the degree of allergy risk depends on the rate at which Nickel is released from the surface, not from the Nickel content of the body.
"highly allergic to the poison ivy that grows abundantly on his property, but still manages to avoid exposure"
I hate to break it to you, but we just agreed: Be aware of the hazard, and avoid it. For some of us Nickel is a hazard, so tend not to buy it, just the same as you tend to avoid tubas with poison-ivy plating.
Last edited by MikeW on Tue May 29, 2012 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by Donn »

Rick Denney wrote:If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.
Among the causes of this dermatitis problem, Levi's snaps are probably low on the list, if people wear underwear as commonly as I have always supposed. But if Levi Strauss is obliged to forego nickel in their snaps because the EU regulations aren't precise enough to make this distinction, I'm not too worried that they'll find something else. Meanwhile, perhaps a generation or two will develop many fewer cases of this contact dermatitis and nickel will continue to be useful in the broad range of applications where it doesn't usually cause the sensitivity, but where an already sensitive person couldn't tolerate it. It all seems rather practical to me.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by iiipopes »

bloke wrote:In the past, Yamaha sold some beginner nickel plated trumpets that were actually cheaper in price than the entry level lacquered brass trumpets...and beginner saxophones - nearly always - feature nickel plated (rather than lacquered brass) keys.
Likewise with the old King Tempo trumpet from 1-to-2 generations ago.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

I was (finally) going to leave this one alone, but this is so wrong-headed:
If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.
I don't own any Levi jeans, so I don't know if their snaps are a problem. The reaction I have experienced is to the button that closes the waistband on many brands of jeans, and is mounted on a rivet, the back of which is (used to be ?) Nickel plated. This device is specifically named in the EU regs as a "rivet-button". When the nickel-plated version of these devices is used on women's jeans, it is frequently pressed close against the skin of the belly, behind the waistband. When this happens, it will injure one in ten of the potential purchasers.

A civilized country has laws that ensure that goods offered in trade must be fit for their purpose, and the purpose of clothes is to be worn without causing injury. Enacting and enforcing consumer protection laws is not "the tail wagging the dog", it is the Government actually doing its job, for a change. As you so rightly point out, there are safe alternatives: Why do you object so strongly to forcing manufacturers to use them ?
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

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MikeW wrote:As you so rightly point out, there are safe alternatives: Why do you object so strongly to forcing manufacturers to use them ?
Because the people making the decision too rarely are actually concerned about safety, and are too often reacting to poor (anecdotal, exaggerated) science. In many cases, the experts on one side line up against the experts on the other side, resorting to flim-flam to persuade people they are right, when in fact they are all advocates rather than honest brokers. I'd rather assume my own risk if it means I get the opportunity to make more decisions for myself. Too often, those politician decisions are over-reactive, counter-productive, and designed to make someone rich instead of actually promoting safety, even if they are popular because of the effectiveness of their persuasion.

Example: The use of DuPont-branded and patented automotive air-conditioning refrigerants instead of highly refined hydrocarbon (read: high-grade propane) which is a safe gas no more flammable than R-134 (and less poisonous when it does burn), less likely to leak, more effective as a refrigerant, does not need to be recovered, runs at a lower head pressure, is greenhouse-gas safe, compatible with all effective lubricants (which 134 is not), and does not require expensive recovery when a system is emptied. But R-134 is "safer", because DuPont has political connections to make it so. So, we could either slap DuPont on the wrist for engaging the political process in their favor, or limit the writing of laws that ban safe chemicals just because some politicians have been scared into thinking they are unsafe. The outcome is that if someone wants to do their own work, there are now a plethora of laws preventing such, mostly written to favor groups of suppliers and vendors who lobby for them. We are less and less able to do for ourselves. In the interest of preventing risk, we also limit freedom and self-sufficiency.

Yes, there are times when the right decision is made. But those seem to me more the exceptions than the rule.

Rick "on enough standards and policy committees to know how they work" Denney
Last edited by Rick Denney on Tue May 29, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by hup_d_dup »

MikeW wrote:When this happens, it will injure one in ten of the potential purchasers.
If the rate of injury is 10% before the purchase is even made, think how high it must be for actual purchasers!

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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by MikeW »

Rick Denney wrote: Because the people making the decision too rarely are actually concerned about safety, and are too often reacting to poor (anecdotal, exaggerated) science. In many cases, the experts on one side line up against the experts on the other side, resorting to flim-flam to persuade people they are right, when in fact they are all advocates rather than honest brokers. I'd rather assume my own risk if it means I get the opportunity to make more decisions for myself. Too often, those politician decisions are over-reactive, counter-productive, and designed to make someone rich instead of actually promoting safety, even if they are popular because of the effectiveness of their persuasion.
I think I hear you saying that you are ok with the concept of standards that minimize risk, but not happy with the decision process that creates the standards. I guess that comes of not being able to protect decisions from the best politicians money can buy, and I doubt if many people would disagree.

In the case of the EU Nickel regs, I think they may have come close to a pragmatic optimum: We can't cut off the flow of cheap glitter to the ADOS generation (Attention Deficit Oooh! Shiny!), the "civil liberty" movement will see to that, and it's too late to ban the use of metal fasteners in clothing, because that would eat into profits, but we may be able to mitigate the worst results by controlling Nickel emissions. Who knows, maybe the incidence of Nickel sensitivity will even fall in the next generation or so.

In the meantime, for those of us who are already sensitized, Nickel plating an instrument is like using poison ivy leaves in a flower arrangement; it may be pretty, but "look, don't touch", and if you didn't warn me, I reserve the right to get after you. Claiming that I can easily protect myself from the plating returns us to caveat emptor, where the injury is my fault for not detecting and avoiding the hazard. I prefer the "product liability" approach, where the supplier is liable if he didn't warn me. Better yet, just tell me it's Nickel, and I'll leave it on the shelf.

For those of you who develop a sensitivity AFTER buying and playing a Nickel plated instrument: I really, really do NOT want to sit on the jury that has to sort out your product liability claim.
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Re: Nickel vs. Silver plating

Post by Tigerreydelaselva »

would anybody know what are the alloys that they use on german tubas for producing a rich, warm, huge and a dark sound on them? My teacher told me that they use a blend of 40% zinc per 60% of copper, here i have a friend that has a melton 200 spezial, and i want to have a copy of it

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