Dating my BAT

[TubadudeCA]

Hey all,

I have an Alexander Kaiser BBb 164. Anybody have any idea how to find the date on one of these horns? no serial number to speak of, and no Garland on the bell either.

Thanks!

[Dan Schultz]

Probably your best resource will be someone like Klaus who is familiar with European instruments. Lots of pictures will help... especially things like linkage detail, braces, ferrules, and such.

[TubaRay]

Whew! When I first read the topic, I thought you talking about "going out with" or "courting" your tuba. OK. After I recently saw the story of the female teacher who married herself, one never knows anymore.

[tbn.al]

Whew! When I first read the topic, I thought you talking about "going out with" or "courting" your tuba. OK. After I recently saw the story of the female teacher who married herself, one never knows anymore.

+1

[Ben]

Contact Caspar Kerkof at Alexander directly. He is very friendly and will contact the "old workers" who can give you rough dates based on the features of your horn. He has helped me bracket two of the Alex tubas I own, and given me additional history which confirmed stories from the seller.

[Wyvern]

Whew! When I first read the topic, I thought you talking about "going out with" or "courting" your tuba. OK. After I recently saw the story of the female teacher who married herself, one never knows anymore.

Strange, i thought the same thing!

[GC]

What, no eHarmony jokes?

[imperialbari]

Something has been completely misunderstood!.jpg

[imperialbari]

Probably will take in-house experts from Alexander to date this tuba with any degree of precision.

But even they will need photos of a much higher resolution to see details that will give away a year or even a decade.

Klaus

[TubaRay]

Something has been completely misunderstood!.jpg

Hilarious, and totally "on topic."

[Dean E]

Something has been completely misunderstood!.jpg

And when you run out of lubricants, they are in aisle 15.

[TubadudeCA]

Here are some pics. Hope these will work!

[imperialbari]

Looks old to me. Definitely not after the fall of the wall in 1989. Between WWII and the reunification West German instruments were marked Made in Western Germany. From this and from the flareless bell I would say pre-WWII. Wouldn’t at all be surprised if it was from around 1900.

String action is an American invention known from CW-era instruments. I am not sure when that transmission was introduced in Germany.

The paddles puzzle me, as they are very different from Alexander’s paddles for tubas with S-links, but then they are not unlike Alexander’s horn paddles. Also somewhat like King’s paddles for their rotary tubas from before WWII.

The scans in my Yahoo-based galleries are from much newer Alexander catalogues:

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Yo ... %20format/

Klaus

[Rick Denney]

Between WWII and the reunification West German instruments were marked Made in Western Germany.

Not relevant here, but "Made in Western Germany" was never an official mark, though it was commonly used. It was the first incarnation of the desire for manufacturers in the U.S., French, and British occupation areas of post-war Germany to distinguish themselves from "inferior" manufacturing in the Soviet occupation zone. Thus, it would have started around 1950--Germany was divided into occupation zones in 1949. "Made in Western Germany" morphed into "Made in West Germany" fairly early in that period, but it happened variously depending on the manufacturer. There are no products imported into the U.S. that say "Made in East Germany", though that marking was apparently used. In most cases, the Soviets wanted to emphasize that East Germany was its own country (while those in the west insisted it was still part of Germany under Soviet occupation). So, most items made in East Germany are marked "Made in the German Democratic Republic" or "Made in G.D.R" or "Made in D.D.R."

In this case, the fact that it is marked "Made in Germany" tells me that it was exported either to the United States or to the UK. If exported to the UK, it must post-date 1887, which was when the British established country-of-origin marking requirements for products made in Germany. That requirement was not established in the United States until Tariff Act of 1930. (The McKinley Tariff Act of 1890 is sometimes credited for country-of-origin labeling requirements, but in fact it did not require it. Products made for export to any English-speaking country, however, probably included the marking.)

So, that does not refute Klaus's guess that this one was made around the turn of the last century.

But I rather think it was made a bit later. Instruments like this were never popular in the UK and I rather doubt that many German kaiser tubas found their way there until modern times--by which time Alexander would have been making S-linkages. The paddle arrangement is very similar to a pre-war King 1290, though the bell is more like the standard pre-war German kaiser tuba. If this one was made between the wars for export to the U.S., King might well have gone to school on it for its own model. The similarity in the configuration of the mechanism suggests someone went to school. It's not impossible that Alexander was copying the King configuration in order to appeal to the American market--as bad as it was in the U.S. during the Depression, it was worse in Germany.

There is that famous etching of the 1872 Cerveny Kaiser that Bevan included in his book, with a fairly similar configuration and even less bell flare. But I'm still feeling that this one was made between the wars. Pre-WWI tubas from the Bohemia vicinity used medallions, as I recall, rather than engraving directly on the bell, which was more common with American instruments. But that may be based on having seen too small a sample. Klaus can probably confirm or refute my suppositions.

If the instrument plays a touch flat, or needs the slide to be pushed aggressively in, then it was probably made before 1939, when A-440 was adopted as an international standard. Before that, most European orchestras used diapason normal, which was A-435. Many American instruments from that era need to be trimmed a bit (viz. the famous story of Renold Schilke pulling a hacksaw out of his locker and "adjusting" the main slide on Arnold Jacobs's York tuba).

Rick "throwing some clues into consideration" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

.... The paddle arrangement is very similar to a pre-war King 1290, though the bell is more like the standard pre-war German kaiser tuba. If this one was made between the wars for export to the U.S., King might well have gone to school on it for its own model. The similarity in the configuration of the mechanism suggests someone went to school. It's not impossible that Alexander was copying the King configuration in order to appeal to the American market--as bad as it was in the U.S. during the Depression, it was worse in Germany....

King has been mentioned twice in this thread. I have one of those rotary Kings (a 'pit' model) and it's quite clear that King had nothing to do with the manufacture of the rotors, which are obviously of European origin.

At this point... if I had to 'guess'... I think the rotors on the Kings were probably manufactured by the same folks who made the Alex valves.

[J.c. Sherman]

This is definitely not a 164... it's much too old, and the bell flare and other items (including style elements from similar Alexander Horns) puts the date around 1925-1930 if my Alex-o-philia is correct. Could be a bit earlier, but that's my sense from all the factors here.

J.c.S.

[TubadudeCA]

The general consensus seems to be that it is before WWII, so the 1925-1930 estimate seems like a good bet to me. Now that I've taken some time to look at other photos, the paddles really ARE odd! Maybe somebody disliked the traditional Alex buttons and had them replaced?

Also, can anyone give me a ballpark figure of what it may be worth?

[TubadudeCA]

The general consensus seems to be that it is before WWII, so the 1925-1930 estimate seems like a good bet to me. Now that I've taken some time to look at other photos, the paddles really ARE odd! Maybe somebody disliked the traditional Alex buttons and had them replaced?

Also, can anyone give me a ballpark figure of what it may be worth?

How much did you buy it for?

$100

[TubadudeCA]

Well that's a good starting point![/quote]

I sure think so! But the reason for me wanting to know of the value, is me trying to figure out if I should insure it. Never in my life do I ever plan to sell it.

[Rick Denney]

Well that's a good starting point!

I sure think so! But the reason for me wanting to know of the value, is me trying to figure out if I should insure it. Never in my life do I ever plan to sell it.[/quote]

In general, the value of tubas is in how they play. Very few tubas have the provenance or history to be valuable as collector pieces beyond their value as playing instruments. And probably all of those are already safely part of collections, and not sitting in someone's attic to be found in the next garage sale.

I would ensure it for replacement value, and provide as the replacement comparable any modern 4-valve Bb tuba of largish proportions. With a provider like Clarion, you'll need an appraisal, and those can be provided by those who sell and repair tubas (including some on this forum).

For actual cash value, condition is everything, and can't be determined from pictures on a forum. An appraisal for actual cash value would be nice to have to show the insurance company in case of a total loss.

If it's in good condition (and looks it) and plays really well, you might be able to get about half what a new, similar tuba would cost, if you wanted to sell.

Rick "doubting it's the long-lost instrument of the Berlin Phil tuba player from 1929" Denney