Nickel vs. Silver plating

[Rick Denney]

There is nearly no substance, it would seem, that someone isn't allergic to.

Nickel is a part of many steel alloys, including all stainless steels. Even the stuff used for medical implants has 13-15% nickel in it. Yet I've never heard of anyone having an allergic reaction to stainless steel. So, is it pure nickel? Nickel in some particular alloy?

My wife only wears gold earrings, as a precaution. Most women I've known thought of that as a standard prevaution, but perhaps it's too expensive when one has 45 piercings all over their body. Most metals are reactive and oxidize easily. Personally, I have a hard time generating a lot of sympathy for people who insert all manner of metal objects through their skin in a self-mutilation ritual.

Some get contact dermatitis from silver, and many do from brass. Those people seem to have come up with strategies vis a vis playing the tuba, without help from a mothering regulatory body of some sort. There are many excellent tubas that have no exposed nickel on them at all, and others where those bits don't come in contact with skin. But the nickel on the silver parts of Miraphones isn't pure nickel, it's a nickel-silver alloy. Is it the alloy that's the problem? (Common nickel-silver has less nickel in it than does stainless steel--about 10%.)

If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.

I have copper pipes and I'm sure at least some of the solder holding them together has lead in it. So, I take reasonable precautions to keep lead down well below the risk floor: I don't draw drinking or cooking water from the hot tap, and I let the water run for a minute or so before using it.

Rick "highly allergic to the poison ivy that grows abundantly on his property, but still manages to avoid exposure" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

There is nearly no substance, it would seem, that someone isn't allergic to......

Although not a substance... the thought of practicing gives me hives.

[TubaRay]

A huge "Amen" to Rick's post(above). Why do so many feel that none of us can take some care for ourselves?

[MikeW]

Nickel is a part of many steel alloys, including all stainless steels. Even the stuff used for medical implants has 13-15% nickel in it. Yet I've never heard of anyone having an allergic reaction to stainless steel. So, is it pure nickel? Nickel in some particular alloy?

According to the site where I found the EU regulations, metallic Nickel is harmless until it combines with sweat to produce Nickel Sulphate, which is water soluble; The allergic reaction is to Nickel released from the surface, not to the Nickel content of the bulk material. The Nickel in most grades of stainless steel is contained behind a corrosion-proof "passive layer" of chromium oxides, so it does not react with sweat, and these grades are (mostly) safe for skin contact. Unfortunately, this is less true of 303-grade steel (the most readily machinable grade).

I finally found some solid numbers on this topic: 303 steel releases some Nickel when steeped in synthetic sweat containing Chlorides, but not enough to exceed EU regulations. When test-patches (steel discs) were applied to volunteers already known to be sensitized, and left in place for two days, only 14% of the volunteers reacted:
http://www.euro-inox.org/pdf/health/The ... ice_EN.pdf

To my mind this means that, even if you are already sensitized, you still have at least a one-in-seven chance of getting away with prolonged contact with 303 steel, and your chances have to improve with shorter exposures, especially if you clean the exposed area carefully after each exposure (to remove any lingering Nickel Sulphate).
If you are not already known to be sensitized, the odds improve to about one in seven hundred.

If you are one of the unlucky few that still react, consider a titanium mouthpiece, or get one of Bloke's "H-Kote" rims .

But the nickel on the silver parts of Miraphones isn't pure nickel, it's a nickel-silver alloy. Is it the alloy that's the problem? (Common nickel-silver has less nickel in it than does stainless steel--about 10%.)

As far as I can understand these things, "Nickel-Silver" is usually an alloy of Nickel and Copper, with no actual Silver content, and the degree of allergy risk depends on the rate at which Nickel is released from the surface, not from the Nickel content of the body.

"highly allergic to the poison ivy that grows abundantly on his property, but still manages to avoid exposure"

I hate to break it to you, but we just agreed: Be aware of the hazard, and avoid it. For some of us Nickel is a hazard, so tend not to buy it, just the same as you tend to avoid tubas with poison-ivy plating.

[Donn]

If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.

Among the causes of this dermatitis problem, Levi's snaps are probably low on the list, if people wear underwear as commonly as I have always supposed. But if Levi Strauss is obliged to forego nickel in their snaps because the EU regulations aren't precise enough to make this distinction, I'm not too worried that they'll find something else. Meanwhile, perhaps a generation or two will develop many fewer cases of this contact dermatitis and nickel will continue to be useful in the broad range of applications where it doesn't usually cause the sensitivity, but where an already sensitive person couldn't tolerate it. It all seems rather practical to me.

[iiipopes]

In the past, Yamaha sold some beginner nickel plated trumpets that were actually cheaper in price than the entry level lacquered brass trumpets...and beginner saxophones - nearly always - feature nickel plated (rather than lacquered brass) keys.

Likewise with the old King Tempo trumpet from 1-to-2 generations ago.

[MikeW]

I was (finally) going to leave this one alone, but this is so wrong-headed:

If I got blisters from the snaps on Levi's, I think I'd switch to Dockers (which have plastic buttons). Or, I'd go down to the fabric store and buy some buttons and sew them on myself. Forcing Levi's to use a material that is inert for me (but maybe not for somebody else) seems like the tail wagging the dog.

I don't own any Levi jeans, so I don't know if their snaps are a problem. The reaction I have experienced is to the button that closes the waistband on many brands of jeans, and is mounted on a rivet, the back of which is (used to be ?) Nickel plated. This device is specifically named in the EU regs as a "rivet-button". When the nickel-plated version of these devices is used on women's jeans, it is frequently pressed close against the skin of the belly, behind the waistband. When this happens, it will injure one in ten of the potential purchasers.

A civilized country has laws that ensure that goods offered in trade must be fit for their purpose, and the purpose of clothes is to be worn without causing injury. Enacting and enforcing consumer protection laws is not "the tail wagging the dog", it is the Government actually doing its job, for a change. As you so rightly point out, there are safe alternatives: Why do you object so strongly to forcing manufacturers to use them ?

[Rick Denney]

As you so rightly point out, there are safe alternatives: Why do you object so strongly to forcing manufacturers to use them ?

Because the people making the decision too rarely are actually concerned about safety, and are too often reacting to poor (anecdotal, exaggerated) science. In many cases, the experts on one side line up against the experts on the other side, resorting to flim-flam to persuade people they are right, when in fact they are all advocates rather than honest brokers. I'd rather assume my own risk if it means I get the opportunity to make more decisions for myself. Too often, those politician decisions are over-reactive, counter-productive, and designed to make someone rich instead of actually promoting safety, even if they are popular because of the effectiveness of their persuasion.

Example: The use of DuPont-branded and patented automotive air-conditioning refrigerants instead of highly refined hydrocarbon (read: high-grade propane) which is a safe gas no more flammable than R-134 (and less poisonous when it does burn), less likely to leak, more effective as a refrigerant, does not need to be recovered, runs at a lower head pressure, is greenhouse-gas safe, compatible with all effective lubricants (which 134 is not), and does not require expensive recovery when a system is emptied. But R-134 is "safer", because DuPont has political connections to make it so. So, we could either slap DuPont on the wrist for engaging the political process in their favor, or limit the writing of laws that ban safe chemicals just because some politicians have been scared into thinking they are unsafe. The outcome is that if someone wants to do their own work, there are now a plethora of laws preventing such, mostly written to favor groups of suppliers and vendors who lobby for them. We are less and less able to do for ourselves. In the interest of preventing risk, we also limit freedom and self-sufficiency.

Yes, there are times when the right decision is made. But those seem to me more the exceptions than the rule.

Rick "on enough standards and policy committees to know how they work" Denney

[hup_d_dup]

When this happens, it will injure one in ten of the potential purchasers.

If the rate of injury is 10% before the purchase is even made, think how high it must be for actual purchasers!

Hup

[MikeW]

Because the people making the decision too rarely are actually concerned about safety, and are too often reacting to poor (anecdotal, exaggerated) science. In many cases, the experts on one side line up against the experts on the other side, resorting to flim-flam to persuade people they are right, when in fact they are all advocates rather than honest brokers. I'd rather assume my own risk if it means I get the opportunity to make more decisions for myself. Too often, those politician decisions are over-reactive, counter-productive, and designed to make someone rich instead of actually promoting safety, even if they are popular because of the effectiveness of their persuasion.

I think I hear you saying that you are ok with the concept of standards that minimize risk, but not happy with the decision process that creates the standards. I guess that comes of not being able to protect decisions from the best politicians money can buy, and I doubt if many people would disagree.

In the case of the EU Nickel regs, I think they may have come close to a pragmatic optimum: We can't cut off the flow of cheap glitter to the ADOS generation (Attention Deficit Oooh! Shiny!), the "civil liberty" movement will see to that, and it's too late to ban the use of metal fasteners in clothing, because that would eat into profits, but we may be able to mitigate the worst results by controlling Nickel emissions. Who knows, maybe the incidence of Nickel sensitivity will even fall in the next generation or so.

In the meantime, for those of us who are already sensitized, Nickel plating an instrument is like using poison ivy leaves in a flower arrangement; it may be pretty, but "look, don't touch", and if you didn't warn me, I reserve the right to get after you. Claiming that I can easily protect myself from the plating returns us to caveat emptor, where the injury is my fault for not detecting and avoiding the hazard. I prefer the "product liability" approach, where the supplier is liable if he didn't warn me. Better yet, just tell me it's Nickel, and I'll leave it on the shelf.

For those of you who develop a sensitivity AFTER buying and playing a Nickel plated instrument: I really, really do NOT want to sit on the jury that has to sort out your product liability claim.

[Tigerreydelaselva]

would anybody know what are the alloys that they use on german tubas for producing a rich, warm, huge and a dark sound on them? My teacher told me that they use a blend of 40% zinc per 60% of copper, here i have a friend that has a melton 200 spezial, and i want to have a copy of it

[Rick Denney]

would anybody know what are the alloys that they use on german tubas for producing a rich, warm, huge and a dark sound on them? My teacher told me that they use a blend of 40% zinc per 60% of copper, here i have a friend that has a melton 200 spezial, and i want to have a copy of it

Arguments abound, but my contention is that it's not the alloy, but first the sound concept and ability of the player, then some distance behind that the shape, and to a much lesser extent, the way the metal is worked. The Meinl-Weston 200 is handmade, as I recall, which will provide a much different mix of internal stresses than hydraulic forming.

Rick "noting that different alloys necessarily impose different working processes" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

would anybody know what are the alloys that they use on german tubas for producing a rich, warm, huge and a dark sound on them? My teacher told me that they use a blend of 40% zinc per 60% of copper, here i have a friend that has a melton 200 spezial, and i want to have a copy of it

There are many, many brass alloys with zinc content ranging from about 10% for some of the red brass alloys to over 50% for white brass alloys. Most of what we see in tubas is yellow brass with a zinc content around 23%. Check Wikipedia for more information about the various alloys and what they are used for.

Agreeing with Rick Denny... there are many factors besides the alloy that determine how a horn plays. The operator is number one.

[Tigerreydelaselva]

yes, you are true when you say that the sound concept, is first for player's ability, but i'm not considered a professional tubist yet, and last saturday when i tried the 200 in the choral ensamble, i felt the sound full, rich and dark, just like i wanted, and the purpose tha i'd like to make a copy of it with a luthier, is to unmask the following mistery: "WHY CHINESE INSTRUMENTS ARE VERY HARD, UNTUNNED, AND FOR ME, SIMPLY A LOT OF AWFULL STUFF?"

[Rick Denney]

WHY CHINESE INSTRUMENTS ARE VERY HARD, UNTUNNED, AND FOR ME, SIMPLY A LOT OF AWFULL STUFF?"

Not all of them fit that description, of course. But the ones that do are the way they are not because of their brass, but because those who built them have never conducted the research to know what affects what, so that they can undertake a trial-and-error process that actually can identify error and try things that are likely to correct it. In other words, the examples that fit your description are poorly designed and poorly tested.

Rick "it ain't the brass" Denney

[Donn]

It might be worth adding that the luthier's attempt to copy the Melton 200 is likely encounter the very same problems.

(Assuming you mean, by "luthier", an artisan skilled at brass instrument construction. Normally, luthiers work with stringed instruments like guitars and violins. The equivalent for brass instruments is so rare that I'm not aware that English has a word for it.)

[Tigerreydelaselva]

I understand that a luthier, is a person with the faculty to build or repair any type o instrument, obviously they are ONLY specialized on a unique type of instrument, BRASS, STRINGS, REEDS, PERCUSSION, or PIANOS.
My friend repaired my 3 piston valves F tuba and it plays now very well, but has a limited register because of the valves, and he changed the leadpipe to adapt my B. tilz F tuba mouthpiece.
There in Brazil is a factory that produces wood and brass, (WERIL/WEINGRILL), and 2 years ago exhibited a new model of BBb tuba, the WEINGRILL TU2L3, and is an exact copy of the St. Petersburg 202N, last year i tried both tubas, and i think that the first was better and softer than the St. Petersburg.
I think with the attempt of copying the melton 200, maybe i can reach the "victory", I REALLY LOVE THIS TUBA, when i called melton in 2010, they said me that this tuba is out of production, i really was sad when i received that news.
but i hope that melton can make this model by special order. if you know, can you give more information for me?
thanks.

[Tigerreydelaselva]

I understand that a luthier, is a person with the faculty to build or repair any type o instrument, obviously they are ONLY specialized on a unique type of instrument, BRASS, STRINGS, REEDS, PERCUSSION, or PIANOS.
My friend repaired my 3 piston valves F tuba and it plays now very well, but has a limited register because of the valves, and he changed the leadpipe to adapt my B. tilz F tuba mouthpiece.
There in Brazil is a factory that produces wood and brass, (WERIL/WEINGRILL), and 2 years ago exhibited a new model of BBb tuba, the WEINGRILL TU2L3, and is an exact copy of the St. Petersburg 202N, last year i tried both tubas, and i think that the first was better and softer than the St. Petersburg.
I think with the attempt of copying the melton 200, maybe i can reach the "victory", I REALLY LOVE THIS TUBA, when i called melton in 2010, they said me that this tuba is out of production, i really was sad when i received that news.
but i hope that melton can make this model by special order. if you know, can you give more information for me?
thanks.

[Dan Schultz]

I understand that a luthier, is a person with the faculty to build or repair any type o instrument, obviously they are ONLY specialized on a unique type of instrument, BRASS, STRINGS, REEDS, PERCUSSION, or PIANOS.....

Huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutherie

[aqualung]

maybe a person who makes trumpets, trombones, tubas, etc. should be called a brassier