Review of Gemeinhardt Production CC and BBb piston tubas

[bisontuba]

HI-
Today, Dick Barth from Gemeinhardt was in town at the Buffalo Philharmonic's Music Hall-- Kleinhans, and brought the latest production samples. Present besides Dick and yours truly was Don Harry, Lon Gormley, and Travis Hendra.

I had the opportunity, if I wanted, to buy today the silver prototype 5 valve CC tuba that Dick had shown and that he had let me borrow to use here in Buffalo. I was prepared to buy it today--BUT---was very surprised at the production horns.

BTW, I'll let Don speak for himself on his Facebook page.

Pics of all the tubas can be found on http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank


Lon playing the silver Gemeinhardt 5v Eb tuba


Don playing the Gemeinhardt 4v lacquer BBb tuba


Don playing the Gemeinhardt 4v lacquer CC tuba


pic of 4 valve CC lacquered tuba (Note: No, it is not tiger stripped, but the lighting and flash-sorry)


pic of 4 valve BBb lacquered tuba (Note: No, it is not tiger stripped, but the lighting and flash-sorry)

First the BBb---what a VERY FINE tuba! From top to bottom, it plays great, with a beautiful dark sound. This horn would be fabulous for any BBb players looking for a well built piston tuba that plays great. Best 4/4 piston BBb out there--nothing else is close. Schools ordering new tubas NEED to check this tuba out!

The CC--FABULOUS!!! I can't say enough superlatives about this horn. Valves are like velvet, the construction quality has gone way, way up (and it was high to begin with!), the horn just has a killer low range and sings up high, pitch is spot on, very even slots for the notes----nothing, and I mean nothing, IMHO, is in this class--even the excellent M/W Thor or Miraphone 1291-3 or B&S PT-6P or Besson 995 or a Hirsbrunner/Adams----the Gemeinhardt J-844 (4 valve) or J-845 (dependent 5th valve) is the new Best in Show!

As stated earlier, I was fully prepared to buy the prototype today--which is an awesome horn! But just by the slightest of tweaks and changes, the production model-IMHO-was better (Note: The prototype IS for sale--anyone in need of a great horn at a great price should contact Dick Barth ASAP--it won't last long, believe me).

BTW, Dick will also include with the production horns his copy of a small original Conn-Helleberg--no doubt the best copy of this model-period. A great addition to mouthpieces available! It plays great!

The CC tuba --whether you call it a 4/4 or a 5/4, or a 4.5/4----what ever it is, you can use it for everything and anything. It would work great for solos, brass quintet, theater pits, orchestra, etc.-- It is soooo easy to play. And--amazingly--the slides are long enough, the 4 valve CC is actually all you need--the low range is spot on intonation wise!!! Of course, if you want, you can also get it in 5 valve (dependent 5th).

Needless to say---Production is now A GO for Gemeinhardt F, Eb--and now BBb and CC tubas!!! The 'Fab Four' can be ordered in either lacquer or silver, and in either 4 valve or 5 valves-- and all include a 'MTS style' hard case. For what's it is worth, I placed my order today for a silver 4v CC (don't laugh--until you play the horn, you won't believe that a fifth valve is not needed, but it is true!!)---I still can't get over that low range--I thought the Thor and 1293 had great low ranges---they are not even close to the Gemeinhardt CC!

If interested in trying/playing/ordering/pricing, contact Dick at Gemeinhardt directly at: rbarth@gemeinhardt.com" target="_blank

Also, I think(?) Dick will be in San Antonio at the end of July displaying at a Texas Music show.

Dick has done it again--kudos to him big time!!!! He has set the new standards for F and Eb tubas--and now for BBb and CC tuba. Way to go!!

Regards-

mark jones
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank

[bisontuba]

HI-
Sorry you feel that way--no ad, just the facts. I don't get any money or price breaks for my writing--but unless you are going to Elkhart, no one knows how they play. I would think Don will add something to his Facebook page about today--I would trust his thoughts.
Again, sorry if you thought I was doing an ad--but I just played something very, very special today.

My 2 cents...

Regards-
mark

[MartyNeilan]

Who was this Don Harry guy? I never heard of him.

[Michael Bush]

It would be helpful if someone would produce an official list of tubas posters are allowed to say good things about outside the sponsors forum.

[imperialbari]

It would be helpful if someone would produce an official list of tubas posters are allowed to say good things about outside the sponsors forum.

Finding good instruments at affordable prices for players not having first hand access to testing tubas is a laudable effort. I am bound to say so, as I did so a lot while I was mobile and knew the actually stocked instruments in a number of stores.

However, TubeNet since long has developed an allergy against shill-postings and postings revealing themselves as part of scams.

One store was known for dubious practices towards amateur players. Postings recommending that store were not well received.

One then frequent poster sold allegedly privately owned instruments. But they belonged to his school. He went behind bars. When he started selling instruments here again, the reaction was anything but kind. If he is still here, then under another name.

Suddenly new members started shilling voodoo at high prices. Again the reaction wasn’t kind.

When TN protests what might be shilling, then because TN isn’t sure about the agenda of the posters.

Klaus

[Michael Bush]

Understood, Klaus, but Mark is not a new or unknown poster. These challenges don't just come to suspected shills.

[bort]

Understood, Klaus, but Mark is not a new or unknown poster. These challenges don't just come to suspected shills.

The problem is that Gemeinhardt's marketing people are being lazy. Why is there not a SINGLE mention of a tuba on their home page? The blog is well-written, but I have no interest in being forced to a blog, Facebook, etc. to learn even about the existence of an entire product line.

It's nice for Mark to share his views here, and while it's an enthusiastic post, it's not commercial. It only seems commercial because the people who ARE involved in the business side of things never post here, or on their own company's Web site.

[Bob Kolada]

The few times I've played the Bb it's reminded me of the VMI 3301- looks good with solid stats, but plays and feels kinda "meh". That silly valve angle isn't helping.
I like the Eb better but it DOES look kinda funny (a 981-like body with a King-like valve set could look a LOT better) and I don't really want a dependent 5th on a bass tuba; a 2nd valve kicker would help I like nice playing F tubas, but this Eb is better than this F, hands down.



Bob"not seeing the difficulty of a 2-12 trill"Kolada

[MartyNeilan]

I could never see myself owning a horn with a dependent 5th valve. Tuning is an issue on any horn, especially from what I have heard one of these tubas do live. They aren't horrible at tuning, but for example, low F# and low C# are very sharp notes on CC tuba. I can pull my 4th valve slide, but sometimes it doesn't give me the color I want.

FWIW, this was written a couple years ago by a guy who knows a whole lot more about playing the tuba than most of us combined, concerning CC piston tubas in a similar size range:

Db as on ANY horn is sharp (2-4) pull on 4th slide.
Yes you can use 523 BUT all these horns are designed to play with the least amount of valves down, 523 is not as friendly in most cases.
Low Gb 2-4 is sharp., out with the 4th slide, Here is where the 523 can be used, but I still think it changes the sound of the horn. Pull a bit more than you did on Db.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Dick has updated his blog-FYI

http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank

Mark

[Kory101]

If/when I move slides while playing my instruments, I do it for pitch.

+1

[Bob Kolada]

Plus whatever. I'll occasionally use different fingerings for different sounds, but I only pull for intonation. There's enough awesome players who never pull slides to make that whole "pull for pitch" thing just a mild conversational topic.

[bort]

The thing is, a dependent 5th valve isn't "wrong," it's just different. People who have never played with any 5th valve (or have little time with it) probably won't mind re-learning a few things to make it work. People a year into the DMA, rightfully, are less willing to start making changes now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? But overall, it's probably not going to be a huge deal to most people who buy these tubas.

And if people really hate it and it doesn't work/sell, then G'hardt should change it, just like they fixed the previously goofy leadpipe angle. (Though frankly, and with all due respect, those pictures of Don slumped back in his chair don't particularly make this look like a comfortable tuba to hold. )

[bisontuba]

[

And if people really hate it and it doesn't work/sell, then G'hardt should change it, just like they fixed the previously goofy leadpipe angle. (Though frankly, and with all due respect, those pictures of Don slumped back in his chair don't particularly make this look like a comfortable tuba to hold. )[/quote]

Hi-
Normally Don and I use tuba stands ( older version made in Germany) when playing CC tubas-- we didn't use them this day since we were picking up and testing a lot of horns-- using the stand, you can sit anyway you want. BTW, I thought the CC was quite comfortable to hold/ play without the tuba stand IMHO....

Mark

PS. Folks, it IS worth a drive to Elkhart to play test these horns....

[bort]

Fair enough! Just sayin'!

[TMurphy]

Plus whatever. I'll occasionally use different fingerings for different sounds, but I only pull for intonation. There's enough awesome players who never pull slides to make that whole "pull for pitch" thing just a mild conversational topic.

How many of you can play your horn with all the slides in or out? Sometimes I also pull a slide to help with pitch, but musicality/tone color are ALWAYS foremost.

I have been doing shawwwwwah exercises out of the brass gym for years with a drone. When you do this and focus on color, it makes a difference.

A independent 5th valve, to me, makes a lot of sense. A dependent 5th valve just killed 2 of the major fingerings most people use to improve intonation.

Have Barth/Gemeinhardt experimented with an independent 5th valve?

I will say that ALL my friends who play bass trombone say having an independent 2nd trigger makes a world of difference to them, and that they very much dislike dependent 2nd rotors, they say it doesn't feel right.

Would I be correcting in assuming that you mean you pull slides to *preserve* tone color? That is, to play a pitch with the quality sound you want, and have it be in tune, without having to "lip" the pitch up or down? I think that's what you mean, and if I'm right, I totally understand and agree with what you're saying. If not...then I am confused.

[toobagrowl]

Well, I pull/push slides for pitch

But anyway....back on topic.

These latest G'hardt CC and BBb tubas are obviously geared for the pro market. Aren't these around 5 - 6k? That's not particularly cheap. The pricing for these are getting up into the mid and upper model Cervenys and above the St. Pete tubas.

I think some of us - including me - have not been totally fair on these Chinese tubas.
Those Barrington and Stagg student tubas are different from any other tubas I have seen - they are not clones or copies of anything I've seen. And if they play decently, they are good for schools or anyone wanting that kind of tuba.

[bort]

If they were being marketed to pro's, they would make them in America and charge $10k for them. Frankly, I think that's fine, makes sense, and if these things are the real deal then they will still sell at that price. Why NOT give Kanstul some competition in the US tuba market?

I think these are marketed to college students and adult players who don't want to/can't spend $10k on a tuba. Of course, that's all just a guess, since Gemeinhardt's Web site doesn't mention a single thing about tubas. So really, these tubas aren't marketed at all, let alone to some sub-group.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I love the assumptions--why not make a trip to Elkhart and try them? It's a nice drive in the Summer.
BTW, having now played 6 Gemeinhardt F tubas, they are the most consistent instruments of any I have ever played--they all played alike----unlike a certain German maker who had 10 of the same new model F tuba at a now closed store in Indiana--and each horn played different--extremely inconsistent.
My 2 cents--enjoy the Summer......

Regards-
Mark

[bisontuba]

Dale-
As usual, your postings are 'interesting' ....
Mark