"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[Wyvern]

count: 208/3621

4:41 P.M. CDT 6/21/12

There are two things that always seem to create heated debate on TubeNet - cimbasso and Chinese tubas. Wait to Chinese cimbasso come out - that should really cause the sparks to fly!

[PMeuph]

Having played Verdi with several combinations of trombones, tuba, and cimbasso, I will list my (ill)considered preferences here:

First choice: 3 tenor trombones, cimbasso played by bass trombonist (using a modified bass trombone mouthpiece)

Second choice: 3 tenor trombones & Bass Trombone

Third Choice: 3 tenor trombones, cimbasso played by tubist

Fourth Choice: 2 tenors, bass, and cimbasso

Absolute last resort: Any combination that includes tuba.

Given the 4 member trombone section you play in, the first those four option give the tuba player some time off to do other things.
Doesn't seem so bad for musicians with a full time (contract) salary.

[Lingon]

...Have not tried slide contrabass, (or as I prefer to think of it, Bass Trombone in F. In my mind contrabass trombone starts down around CC or BBb.)...

Hmm, I did think so too before I got to play around with the contra bass we have. But you are right, normally the F trombone is a bass trombone and a BBb is a cb. However the cb trbn in F, which could be called a hybrid, is larger from the goose neck and further out to the bell than a b trbn in F. We have both a Laetzsch cb trbn in F and ditto cimbasso. The sounds from them are close.

Now, did Verdi want two tenors, one bass (in F/G) and a cb in BBb/CC or three tenors and a bass in F/G?

...We used to have an old Conn double slide bass trombone in either Eb or F, (I think)...

That would have been something to fight with Maybe sometinhg like the old cimbasso they had at the Opera here. A 6 valve Vienna system small bore instrument that no one else than the guy that used to play it could even have some sound out of. They even said it used clarinet fingerings. I tried it 1975 with no success...

(I hope we don't end up regretting selling the Conn as much as we regret the long ago sale of a couple of big CC tubas that were made for us!)

Time will tell...

[pjv]

Jazz-o-phone

coined it from the image on this site;
http://harvshappyhorns.blogspot.nl/" target="_blank

But I couldn't say if it was that or a sax-o-tuba or an oreno-phone. It sounded real Eb-ish. I couldn't really hear the difference between this and a tuba.

-Pat

[Lingon]

...I had heard about that D => C insert for the valve slide...

Another C-slide

c_slide.jpg

two different G/D bells

2_gd.jpg

the one G/D with C in case where the C-slide, that seems to be original, does fit

w_case.jpg

[Wyvern]

The oreno-phone is just an Eb tuba in different configuration. It is designed to be better ergonomically to play than normal tuba

[Posaune2]

Eric, Where does use of a travel tuba stand in order of preference? I know Carol Jantsch has one and I guess you have tried in the Philadelphia, if only in rehearsal!

we have not messed around with the travel tuba much, but when I have heard carol play it, it sounded a lot like when blair played the cimbasso. I wouldn't pick it over either the bass trombone or the cimbasso, but would prefer it to a regular tuba.

our cimbasso is in f, and to me looks like a valve bass trombone just wrapped a little differently. I can see why Bloke scoffs at some of the larger cimbassos I have seen pictured - they do look to me like small tubas on a stick.

I think that the cimbasso in F played by a bass trombonist gets a pretty good approximation of the sound of a good bass trombone in f, with a technical facility that is awfully hard to get on one of those long slides. Tuba players on the cimbasso sound just fine, but I think a bass trombonist naturally plays the instrument like a big trombone which is the sound I like to hear on those parts.

In my admittedly somewhat limited experience with Verdi, it seems to me that the 3 upper trombone parts sound best on matched instruments (ie no bass trombone) with a slightly heavier sound on the bottom brass part, whatever it is called. The beautiful warm sound of the tuba just sounds wrong to me on the bottom of Verdi's brass section.

[Lingon]

...Below is linked a rare recording from back when original instruments were used...

Thanks bloke for that very interesting clip. Great to hear and see. Unfortunately I can not see any original instruments other than what was usesd originally in 1962?! And the three tenor trombone parts were even played by two tenors and one bass so original, naah...

!975 or 76 when I had the pleasure to play the Fantastique for the first time, the 1st tuba part was played by something that really looked like an ophiclede, but what I have later understood was a very small bore tuba, 2nd part was played by a more 'standard' tuba. That was then broadcasted but unfortunately because of copyright issues I think the recording was scrapped after 3 performances.

Last time we did the Fantastique we used baroque, very cylindrical , trumpets and three tenor bones plus a Kruspe F tuba and an Ahlberg & Ohlssson F tuba. Not exactly the correct instruments either, but maybe a bit closer to the intended instrumentarium than the modern large bore orchestral cannons and a very fresh sound that the audience were very enthusiastic about, like the viola players that could work without hearing protecting stuff.

While tubas are really wonderful instruments many times, in some cases they are not the optimal tools for the job. Cimbasso is maybe not the best either in all situations but I believe it is a useful tool for some situations.

[pjv]

Even though this is a Verdi discussion;

the ophicleide is not a bass instrument but a tenor instrument pitched in either C or Bb. This makes a modern interpretation on a bass tuba inappropriate. Wrong overtone series.

It should come as no surprise that the Dies Irae becomes the tuba players "problem section" time and time again. Two bass brass instruments (or a bass and a contrabass) blowing an octave above the bassoons most often gives an unbalanced sound. One (or two) tenor brass instruments playing an octave above the bassoons produces a much finer result IMHO.

Actually, the same might be said about a lot of bass trombone parts, but that's their gig.

-Pat

[Trumgottist]

Come on...This is a tuba

"Onna Stick!" (At least it's not "inna bun!")

[sousaphone68]

Come on...This is a tuba

"Onna Stick!" (At least it's not "inna bun!")

Is that a CMOT Dibbler reference?

[J.c. Sherman]

All of the original intentionalists are playing the oficleide on the Requiem...yes...??

-Actually, yes, for me. I'll have to find a legal means of posting some audio; y'all doubters might be a bit surprised.

-As for the Verdi voicing, 2 trombones in Bb, one in F, one in BBb was his preferred section.

-That ginormous contraption, and a few other cimbassi I've tried (Rudy Meinl CC) are "kinda" tubas on sticks; they don't sound like a trombone to me (though I can't explicitly state that about the pictured tuba on a stick, but that's the largest contra I've ever seen... "subcontrabass trombone?" My first version of my first "cimbasso" had a euphonium bell section. FAIL, at the they say. Went to my preferred taper after that.

-I'm lucky, through whatever mechanism of learning, playing a "small" bored F contra/bass is not problematic for me... and for anyone playing a smaller instrument, it's about slowin' the air down. I have a Kanstul 2A mouthpiece on mine and it makes a great sound IMHO, and it's well liked in the section... and by the woodwinds and everyone. It always surprises me that anyone in the winds and strings gives a rats a$$ what's back there, but I get a lot of very positive feedback.

-The Boston recording does what Cleveland Orchestra has done for decades as well for SF - Euph and small tuba. Works nicely in the balance. I will not agree an Ophicleide is a bass instrument; bass instruments, like the cello, descend to roughly low C, as does the Ophicleide. It's explicitly designed to do so. Harumph.

Get off my lawn.

J.c.S.

[Jay Bertolet]

-As for the Verdi voicing, 2 trombones in Bb, one in F, one in BBb was his preferred section.

' on the Requiem?

Is that why he scored if for ophicleide, since he wanted a BBb trombone?

This thread reminds me of the little kid following his dad around and continually saying "Why?" after everything that his father says.

Time to go do something useful.

[Trumgottist]

"Onna Stick!" (At least it's not "inna bun!")

Is that a CMOT Dibbler reference?

Yes.

[Ace]

I like cimbassos and I love this thread, but 20 pages and still going?

Ace

[J.c. Sherman]

-As for the Verdi voicing, 2 trombones in Bb, one in F, one in BBb was his preferred section.

' on the Requiem?

Is that why he scored if for ophicleide, since he wanted a BBb trombone?

Sorry, that was a general orchestration comment, reflected on the end of his creative life, not the Requiem. He certainly approved that; but the original voicing would have been 3 trombones and either valved or keyed ophicleide.

I use an ophicleide because it was acceptable to him then, and because it's a terrific voicing and sound. He never rescored it, otherwise some unusual flips twixt trombone 3 and ophicleide could have been eliminated.

[Rick Denney]

update: ' nearly 4000 hits.

bloke "just curious about the lengths people will go to defend their truth"

I think you satisfied that curiosity with respect to Jay.

But is that what you really intended?

Rick "who has frequently won arguments and wished he hadn't" Denney

[imperialbari]

Problem with this thread isn’t with those referring to the Verdi tradition of Italy and hence in continental Europe, but with the OP calling the cimbasso an American West Coast invention. It takes a highly skilled manipulator or a total ignorant to issue such statement. And after all the OP is not a total ignorant.

Yes, todays bass and contrabass valve trombones called cimbassos are different from what Verdi knew. I haven’t been through all of his scores, only a few. From what have seen I suspect Verdi-era Italian valve trombones and cimbassos only having 3 valves. Modern cimbassos have 4 or 5 valves for more precise intonation. In my experience alone the larger number of valves calls for a larger bore to avoid stuffiness. But where the pre-Perantucci B&S F tubas had a great quality in the increasing bore through the valve block, I don’t remember having seen that feature on modern cimbassos. Of course the added number of valves is inspired by the developments seen first in tubas, and there even may be some cimbassos with inflated bell sections. But the species is not about tubas in disguise.

As for tubists and bass trombonists sounding differently when playing the same set-up of cimbasso: I believe the reports given, because the approaches by trombonists and tubists are different. My intuitive suggestion would be about the tubists going for shallower mouthpieces than even the bass trombonists use.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Which bookmaker took what bet at which odds?

[J.c. Sherman]

Problem with this thread isn’t with those referring to the Verdi tradition of Italy and hence in continental Europe, but with the OP calling the cimbasso an American West Coast invention.

Yes, today's bass and contrabass valve trombones called cimbassos are different from what Verdi knew.

...so where is the disagreement?

...and (only answered by one, but only vaguely) am not clear how many cimbassoists (when playing "this" Verdi) are ALSO ophicleidists (when playing "that" Verdi).

bloke "We're going to clobber 4000 hits."

I think I was just referenced

The modern cimbassi by Kalison/G&P, Rudolph Meinl and other who offer CC and BBb are not really more different than Verdi's other trombones. That we play F or Eb now is an expression of a similar move from G/F/Eb bass trombones up to Bb; it stands to reason that we'd migrate "contrabass" up from to G/F/Eb as well; the slide instruments have largely made that migration. So the section has morphed together, but the chimps had to catch up AND accommodate tubists, many of whom had contracts giving them first choice at 4th parts (Cleveland Opera used to have that clause).

It's that accommodation of tubists that causes some to sound like tubas on sticks, just like euphers doubling trombone can make them sound like slide baritones. The disparity comes from the sound concept, how much practice time is actually committed, and whether a tubist will embrace it as a member of the trombone family and as something apart from their tuba.

The same could be said of other doubles