Poll: Piston Valve Oil

[euphomate]

[quote="bloke"]How does a mixture of Al Cass, Blue Juice, and "store-brand valve oil found in an old Bundy trumpet case from a thrift store" interact with that black crap in the bottom valve caps and that disgusting green "pudding" in the mouthpipe and cross-ports...??

I use "Ultra Pure" synthetic valve oil exclusively on a Besson Sov EEb comp, and a Yamaha 642 euph. So what causes that disgusting build up of a yuk gray slime in the bottom valve caps and piston ports? It has a rubbery feel about it, and when I hose out both of these horns, a number of gobs of this stuff, up to 1/2" in diameter flush out. The build-up starts within weeks of cleaning, and seems worse in colder weather/condensation conditions. Is it related to synthetic oils? I also had it with the Denis Wick synthetic product.

[aqualung]

The best oil is the stuff you swipe out of someone else's case when they aren't looking.

[Lee Stofer]

Use the Ultrapure Lamp oil if you like, but I'll tell you also that every horn I've serviced in the last 17 years that had that on the valves had a rubbery, cheesy buildup that sometimes came out in pieces the size of a large postage stamp and over 0.070" thick. Of course, the effects to your bore size are not really that important - are they?!!

I use Hetman products for almost everything in my shop, but I do still generally resort to Trombotine and Slide-o-Mix for the trombones.

I will also mention that I have encountered exactly two people out of thousands that may have a buildup reaction using Hetman lubricants, and one of them reported that he has no issues with the Yamaha synthetic lubricants. I find it interesting that Yamaha used to use and sell Hetman lubricants - until they could engineer and market their own.

When tubas and euphoniums come in that have been using some of the "Fast" valve oils, I typically find that the pistons are scored or scratched from insufficient lubrication, dirt, or both. If this is happening to your instrument, you need a heavier valve oil.

In our conversations together, Joe Hetman, a trumpeter, recommends the heaviest-viscosity oil that will stilll give you the valve feel that you want. Lighter is not always better, and may very well damage your instrument.

But, alluding to the point I think Bloke was making, the more often you clean your baby, the less difference it makes what you use.

[J.c. Sherman]

One observation I've made, Lee, which could confound your results is that I've found folks who use the Al Cass and other products of that ilk also are lazy about lubricating. In essence, correlation =/= causation necessarily; I think those products are purchased en masse by folks who regularly forget that their horn needs lube

I've also seen buildup on valves using lamp oil... blech!

[Lee Stofer]

That is a very valid point, and well-taken. However, One day in the military, I decided to leave my Rudi at home and use the unit's HB2-P to reduce the wear and tear on my own horn. I lavished the valves with "fast" valve oil, and this horn was not dirty, and the valves did not truly feel properly lubricated all day. I poured oil on them three times, and they did not feel properly lubricated. Although it would provide better protection, I generally would not recommend Hetman #1 for tuba/euph. valves, either. They are just large-enough, with enough stresses on them, that a higher-viscosity oil will really protect them.

[J.c. Sherman]

Have you found what I've found... that "fast" is a pretty good cleaner in some instances?

J.c.S.

[gionvil]

Is Holton still being produced? It smells bad but I like it

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Is Alan Baer still using ultra pure lamp oil & Mobil 1 5w-30 on his piston horns?

Mark

[Bombardonier]

Unless one is attempting a very mean-spirited April Fool's joke at an adult etnertainment club, piston valve oil belongs no where near a pole? (Perhaps I should read the content of this string closer before jumping to conclusions?)

[Rick Denney]

My experiment with ultra-pure lamp oil is officially over, and I'm back to Hetmans.

The buildup of green slime was identical with the lamp oil as with Hetmans, but it just doesn't lube as well or keep crud flushed out of the valves as well. I keep my instrument pretty clean, but I was never able to keep the first valve from crudding up with the lamp oil. I was pulling the pistons and brushing and wiping them and the valves tubes out weekly, and that's just nuts.

In a fit of frustration when my first valve was sticking during a concert, I hosed it down with Hetman's and played the rest of that concert without another hint of a problem. Experiment over--back to Hetmans.

I don't know why I used to never have green slime problems but now seem to. But it isn't simply the mineral oil versus the synthetic oil.

Rick "who might try the Yamaha Synthetic to see if it reduces the slime buildup" Denney

[TubaRay]

I must be behind the times. I haven't even heard of some of those brands of valve oil.

[euphomate]

My experiment with ultra-pure lamp oil is officially over, and I'm back to Hetmans

I'm a little confused here. I don't live in the US, and folks on this thread are referring to Ultrapure "lamp oil" whereas I've been using a product labelled "Ultrapure Professional VALVE Oil - made in USA". Are they the same thing? The green slime buildup seems to be the same, to the point where it has blocked the water keys on my first and main tuning slides. Out of curiosity, I once removed two valve tuning slides, depressed the valves and blew. Largish particles of this horrible slime flew out on to the floor from build up in the slide receiver bends and casing ports. I give my Sov EEb tuba a thorough clean out every three months, and the euph more frequently, but this stuff builds up fairly quickly. It can't be individual mouth chemistry in my view, as the stuff gets to far into the horns for saliva to reach. I've switched to Yamaha synthetic to see what happens.

[TheHatTuba]

My experiment with ultra-pure lamp oil is officially over, and I'm back to Hetmans

I'm a little confused here. I don't live in the US, and folks on this thread are referring to Ultrapure "lamp oil" whereas I've been using a product labelled "Ultrapure Professional VALVE Oil - made in USA". Are they the same thing? The green slime buildup seems to be the same, to the point where it has blocked the water keys on my first and main tuning slides. Out of curiosity, I once removed two valve tuning slides, depressed the valves and blew. Largish particles of this horrible slime flew out on to the floor from build up in the slide receiver bends and casing ports. I give my Sov EEb tuba a thorough clean out every three months, and the euph more frequently, but this stuff builds up fairly quickly. It can't be individual mouth chemistry in my view, as the stuff gets to far into the horns for saliva to reach. I've switched to Yamaha synthetic to see what happens.

Ultrapure is a valve oil company and a grade (?) of lamp oil (ultrapure synthetic valve oil v. Lamplight ultrapure lamp oil).

[euphomate]

Ultrapure is a valve oil company and a grade (?) of lamp oil (ultrapure synthetic valve oil v. Lamplight ultrapure lamp oil).

Thanks. I'm not familiar with lamp oil (we have been on electricity for some time now in the country where I live) ONLY JOKING!! Interesting though that the same effects seem to happen with both products (for some folk).

[Lee Stofer]

To answer J.C. Sherman's question, I do find Al Cass valve oil to have a cleaning effect. According to an article that dealt with the viscosity and chemistry differences of various valve oils, Al Cass valve oil is unique as it is listed as being petroleum solvents, as opposed to traditional hydrocarbon valve oils being petroleum distillates. So, Al Cass would act as a solvent, which would have a cleaning action for as long as the product lasts in the valve casings.

As I understand it, traditional, petroleum distillate valve oil is basically deodorized kerosene. It will work well for a certain period of time. Natural hydrocarbon oils of a certain viscosity actually have hydrocarbon chains (molecular structure) that are in a range around a certain number, but naturally have variances in length. For example, 87 octane gasoline is based on a hydrocarbon chain length of 87, but that is just an average of the chain lengths. With natural hydrocarbon valve oils, they are not completely homogenous either, so the lighter part of the valve oil evaporates with time and leaves the heavier portion, making the valves slow down and feel gummy. Oiling again will correct the problem for a time, but without cleaning, the heavier portion increases and the valves will become a little slower. Al Cass oil will work well-enough on a clean trumpet, but as the petroleum solvents evaporate, it leaves virtually nothing. This may be cleaner, but the ultimate result is that, until it is oiled again, the valves are running only in moisture (water, and probably not all that clean, either). This lack of lubrication is why I have to polish scratches out of pistons on a number of euphoniums and tubas each year, combined with a lack of cleaning that allows the calcium build-up to scratch the pistons and their casings. Ultrapure lamp oil, I would guess, has a formulation that contains parrafin, which is another derivative of crude oil in the refining process. Quaker State motor oil contains parrafin, according to what knowledgeable auto mechanics tell me, and it is known for gumming-up the interiors of engines. An oil containing parrafin may feel very smooth for a while, and maybe last longer than deodorized kerosene alone, but the trade-off will be nasty build-up.

For what it is worth, the Hetman lubricants are synthetic hydrocarbons. With synthetic lubricants, the hydrocarbon chains are exactly the same length, which has the effect of them being more slippery while providing superior lubrication. That is why cars get better fuel economy when using full synthetic motor oils. Plus, the Hetman oils are fortified with viscosity enhancers to prevent break-down of the oil, and corrosion inhibitors to help prevent corrosion of the metals in the instrument. This is in direct opposition to natural hydrocarbon oils, which contain acids.

If you were to thoroughly wash-out your instrument weekly, almost anything would be fine for the valves. However, almost no one in the low brass world does that, so it does matter what you use. My experience has been that if I internally scrub and chemically-clean an instrument, and bright-dip it when it is pristine-clean, dry the instrument thoroughly, and lubricate it with Hetman lubricants, the instrument will perform at it's best for a very long time. As a result of this process, stuck valves and slides are a thing of the past, red rot just does not occur, and whatever buildup you may accumulate in your instrument from playing is not stuck to the metal, but will easily flush out. I tell band directors that my cleaning process, if followed up with a simple soap-and-water cleaning yearly, will last a minimum of 5 years, and very possibly longer if they use Hetman lubricants.

[Rick Denney]

Lee, your descriptions of oils are little too simple. Distilled mineral oils can be quite homogeneous--that's what the refraction process does during refining. Ultrapure lamp oil contains between 10 and 15 or so carbon atoms per molecule--a pretty narrow range.

Ultrapure lamp oils (not to be confused with a valve oil product of similar name, about which have no experience) are paraffin-based oils, but paraffin does not necessarily cause gumminess, just as non-paraffin oils don't always avoid it. Most oils used for musical instruments are derived from paraffins. The "ultrapure" grade of lamp oil is highly refined and contains quite a consistent viscosity. And I think you'll find it's a whole lot like deoderized kerosene (as in: they are one and the same--kerosene is apparently even called paraffin in the UK). And kerosene also contains napthalene (aka, lighter fluid), which is a solvent for most oils. Remember that any light petroleum fraction is a solvent for heavier fractions.

The notion that Quaker State motor oil causes gumminess is a myth, near as I can tell. If it was ever true, it was because they long ago may have lacked the detergents and anti-foaming agents that all modern motor oils now possess.

I have a large bottle of lamp oil sitting on the shelf behind me, to be used for the two lamps sitting next to the bottle, in case of a power outage. It's been sitting next to those lamps at three different houses for about 25 years, and there's no sludge in it that I can detect. It looks just like it did the day I bought it.

Don't confuse this with tallow, a hardened paraffin wax, which is what comes out the other end of the refraction process.

Synthetic oils often have far greater resistance to thermal breakdown compared to mineral oils, and it's much easier to design them with viscosity modifiers. They also do not break down into acid products as badly as some mineral oils. But you can't compare the truths relevant in a car engine to those of tuba valves. There is not enough pressure in tuba valves to cause moisture-induced breakdown that creates acid byproducts as is the case with car engines.

In any case, the green slime I keep finding in my instrument grows far too fast to be related to distillation or evaporation. This is a precipitate caused by the interaction of something, something else, and maybe something else. When I figure what those somethings are, I'll solve the problem. Lanolin (the main soap ingredient in many slide greases) is a strong contender in my thinking at the moment.

Rick "but it absolutely is not hardened paraffin wax" Denney

[acjcf2]

I've found on my beater 3 banger Jupiter 378 that Blue Juice (made in Greer, SC) keeps my valve response quick and have no build up.

I believe there is a biocide property that prevents this build up of crud. I picked up a set of nylon engine block cleaning brush that work very well to get into the nooks and cranies. I oil them twice a week (before practice) and I give the horn a wash about once per quarter. Just my $.02

The home made lubes intrigue me (it's the car guy in me).

Cheers,
Jim

[euphomate]

Lanolin (the main soap ingredient in many slide greases) is a strong contender in my thinking at the moment.

This comment got me thinking. A few years back I started using a slide grease sold exclusively by a local tech that consists of pure sheepwool lanolin. He bottled this stuff himself from melted down industrial lanolin. No additives I'm aware of. It sets quite hard in cold weather, but is ideal during a hot summer, particularly on worn slides that need a firmer hold in the horn. I have been using it exclusively on worn Sovereign EEb slides. To the best of my recollection, the green slime build-up problem in the Sov started to kick in around the time I began using the pure lanolin. I rarely use it on the euph, and then only on a slightly loose fourth valve slide. The build-up in the euph is minor compared to the EEb. Coincidence? I've given both horns a thorough clean out, switched to Yamaha slide grease, and gone over to Yamaha synthetic valve oil (Hetmans hard to obtain where I live) and will watch with interest.

[Art Hovey]

For the past 6 months or so I have been using a 50-50 mixture of pure glycerin (from a drug store) and formula 409 detergent. There is still a little sludge buildup which requires occasional cleaning, but it's less than I have found with any other lubricant. What I especially like is the fact that if the tuba dries out after a few days of neglect in hot weather I can pour a few drops down the mouthpipe and get everything moving again immediately. There is no longer any accumulation of "lime" on my pistons, and my valve cap threads no longer get stuck. The mixture is also virtually odorless.

[ken k]

couldn't vote for wome reason....Al Cass or whatever is cheapest at the store.....