Holton 105 or 350 question

[roweenie]

Thus is a Holton 105 (or 350?) dating from the mid 1960s accirding to the serial number.

Two questions:

1 - What is the difference (or similarity) to the bugle of the 345 in BBb -

2 - Will the available replacement bells (MW, Kanstul, etc.) fit?

[TheHatTuba]

Thus is a Holton 105 (or 350?) dating from the mid 1960s accirding to the serial number.

Two questions:

1 - What is the difference (or similarity) to the bugle of the 345 in BBb -

2 - Will the available replacement bells (MW, Kanstul, etc.) fit?

1 - I don't think there is a difference.

2 - Meinl 2165 bell and Kanstul 6/4 reproduction bell should fit. Bob Carpenter had his 345 CC fitted with a Kanstul and Malcolm Peach had his 345 BBb fitted with a 2165 bell.

[roweenie]

Sorry there is no image - I'm having trouble getting it to upload from my "smart" phone.

(Contrary to my first post, English is not my second language)

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Sort of the same but not really. Different valve block (close but not quite), valve tuning slide configuration, length and radius of body branches, mouth-pipe taper, etc. But the bell and large branches might be the sam or close enough, not sure.

Daniel C. Oberloh

[roweenie]

IMG_1269-1-1.jpg

[roweenie]

Would Holton have used different bottom-bow tooling for both the 345 and whichever model tuba I just posted above? They were being produced simultaneously - -

Maybe someone out there with an original 345 in BBb and measure the circumference where the bell meets the bottom bow ferrule, and the height of the bell from that point and share it here?

Many thanks -

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

From what I have observed, working on many of the large Holton tuba bows; The 1st branch (bell bow) and top (no. 2) branch were NOT pressed or stamped. They are a little crude in exaction and workmanship. The bottom bows were raised from sheet stock. Two open ''U'' shaped pieces of sheet brass were brazed together at the edges and then opened up into a tube.
No real mandrels or dies are employed except for the no. 2,3,4, etc branches, they were probably rough formed from sheet and then drawn on a straight tapered mandrel, filled and bent to the desired length and radius. Its possible but I don't think they used all the same mandrels.
This is certainly the case with the CC 345 tubas as the branch length and taper is light years different then its BBb brother. Just a few observations.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com

[roweenie]

My Holton's serial number places it around 1966, so it is clearly in the 3xx camp.

However, the 1st and 3rd valve wrap is different from the typical 3xx types (more like the old 105), so maybe it had yet another model number that we are not using. In fact, it seems as though this horn is some sort of a hybrid between the old 105 and the new(er) 350. Dan, is there a separate model number for this particular configuration?

KiltieTuba, thank you for your measurement - it will be extremely useful. I know it will be a little difficult to be exact, but could you also measure the height of the bell? That may help me to know if one of the modern replacement bells might cause intonation problems.

This information might be valuable to those interested in a cost-effective alternative (at least the 4 valve version, that is) to the 345 -----

[roweenie]

I haven't got the horn near me at present - I will post the serial # as soon as I am able -----

Thank you again for the measurements!

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

The 105 was made well into the 60s. The catalog from the late 50s and early 60s has the 345 listed as the model 99.



Daniel C. Oberloh

[roweenie]

Quite right, KiltieTuba. That was my intention

(- - - however, I do happen to have a second bell tenon for this horn, just in case I decide to go to the detachable upright bell route - - - -)

[roweenie]

Dan,

Thanks for the clarification - do you happen to have a 50s or 60s vintage Holton catalogue that shows the 105, and if so, can you share it?

(Surprisingly, there is very little info on the Internet pertaining to these underrated horns....)

[Bandmaster]

Well, if you don't mind more than a few patches on the bell, you can ask Dan if he still has the old bell the came off of my 345 when he restored it? I'm sure he would sell it pretty cheap!

[TubaSteve]

Pulling up an old post here, but I was finally able to locate a bell for my 1967 Holton BBb 350 that I have had, and have been looking for a bell for 3 years. I ended up with another horn to go with it, but it is missing the valves. I am planning to head out to Lee's next week, and have him do a playing overhaul at least with it. I plan to bring the core of the other 350 as it would make a nice starting place for someone who wanted to build a custom 345 6/4 tuba. Perhaps Lee Stofer can make something out of it. These huge Holton's have great sound and I am thrilled to be on the road to getting one that I can play. Even in the condition it is in now, (it had been in a middle school, if you can imagine a middle school having a 6/4 tuba ) it plays very nicely! I picked up a Reynolds TB-11 also, that I couldn't pass up either. Darn tuba collecting, it is like a curse I agree that there is very little information about these old huge Holton horns.

Steve

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Seeing this thread come up again inspired me to contribute. From my collection, I scanned the details from my late 50s Holton catalog. Enjoy!

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[TubaSteve]

Dan, thanks for posting the catalog! I have been a huge fan of your website. (Someday when I retire, I would love to apprentice at that kind of work. I am a fairly good metal smith, so that avocation really interests me.) These old Holtons have interested me since I was in High School back in 1977 when our school had their 350 rebuild along with 5 Reynolds TB-11's. I cared for them like they were my own until graduation. The workman ship on the plating on the valves was not the best, and it started to bubble off and caused the valves to bind. After that, it was not played, and I lost track of them after I left. I started playing again back in 89 and have been thinking about those horns ever since. This 350 that I have, (I will attempt to get some photo's posted), looks like some of your project horns, (not in a good way), but I don't think that it has some of the rot and other crack problems that they had. It plays surprisingly well, so I am encouraged. These were all being thrown away, so I have little invested if it turns out to be a bust.

Steve

[Tundratubast]

The 105-4 in the picture was my horn way back. When I had talked with Dan O he had indicated
that these 105-3 and 105-4 started being built pre-WWII and that it was possible the valve casings had
been made at that time, shelved due to war production needs of brass and then stamped when assembly was started
after the war.