The "standard" tuba in German orchestras?

[bort]

I know that German tuba players overwhelmingly use BBb and F tubas in their orchestras.

Are there particular makes/models that are clearly more popular than others? Kind of like how Hirsbrunner BATs are common finds in US orchestras (and I guess Alexander CC's in the past).

Just curious!

[Roger Lewis]

The rule of thumb is that it has to be a BBb and it has to have rotary valves. Eros Sabatani just won Opera Milano on a 6/4 Siegfried BBb 5 valve rotary tuba from Miraphone. Great horn! Italy, Germany and Austria are still predominantly BBb and F with several of the orchestras sporting the Meinl Weston Fafner BBb.

Roger

[Wyvern]

B&S PT rotary F tubas and Meinl-Weston 'Hilgers' 197 BBb seem to be the most popular in German orchestras I have seen, although Rudolf Meinl are also common, with Fafner being increasingly used.

[bort]

Thanks everyone! I certainly already knew about the rotary and BBb "requirements," just curious if there's a general go-to instrument for folks over there. Interesting about the Fafner being popular, it's still a rather new instrument, isn't it?

Still interested to hear more if anyone else has more to add!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Has Alexander vanished from the European scene? I figured that if Alex's were being used anywhere, it would be there!

[bort]

Has Alexander vanished from the European scene?

No

But are they popular?

[Elliot Dushman]

I play the Melton 195 "Fafner," but the 197 Hilgers is a bit more popular due to its beautiful round sound (the Fafner can get quite a hard color in the louder dynamics). The Rudis are also popular, especially with the Austrians (including the Austrians who play in German orchestras), except that their extraordinarily dark sound can be too much for some tastes. The Alexes are great too, but are rarely seen, I believe mainly because of their extreme deficit intonation-wise.
I also play the B&S "JBL Classics," but while this horn virtuosic, colorful, in-tune, and fun to play, it requires a lot of work to mix in the orchestra. More popular are the normal B&S PT models, as well as the Rudis, and there has been a growing popularity for some of the newer melton tubas. If I were to buy again, I would probably be most interested in the new B&S "selected edition," as it combines the virtuosity and soloistic style of the JBL Classic, with a beautiful tone that provides a fundament for the whole orchestra. Aber das hat für mich bis jetzt geklappt.
why do you ask?
Elliot

[jeopardymaster]

Having owned a 163 CC I understand there can be some significant intonation issues, but I've been told that the Alex BBb horns have better intonation than the CCs. Not so?

[J.c. Sherman]

I'd love to try a Hilgers... but I have a feeling I'd have to own one after that. Is there even one example in the US?

J.c.S.

[bort]

The only one I've ever seen here was the one that Alexander von Puttkamer brought with him to Carnegie Hall last winter. I, too, would *love* to try one of these. But I'm worried enough that the next Fafner I try is going to want to follow me home, let alone something harder to find...

The main reason I asked is that I've been listening to a lot of German orchestra recordings recently, and love that rotary tuba sound. Naturally, it made wonder what specific equipment is most popular over there. My ears get tired of hearing the American 6/4 BAT sound ALL of the time.

[Wyvern]

The 197 Hilgers BBb is based on tuba found in Berlin after World War 2 which was believed to have been used in Hitler's guards band. Walter Nirschl also makes Kaiser tuba based on similar model but with slightly larger diameter bell which I understand was found in Vienna.

Having heard these live at the Proms in London a couple times, they do make a super sound - I would say project more than a Fafner

[Elliot Dushman]

[quote="J.c. Sherman"]I'd love to try a Hilgers... but I have a feeling I'd have to own one after that. Is there even one example in the US?

J.c.S.[/quote]

PM sent

[swillafew]

Here's the 'exception that proves the rule'. Who can identify the horn?

http://youtu.be/DeMmauRMbts" target="_blank

There is a good shot of the tuba at 5:35

[ppalan]

I'm not sure what kind of tuba it is but the player is Tom Walsh, an American from Philadelphia, PA. I wouldn't be surprised if it was some kind of a Nirschl from Geretsried which is only about 45 minutes from Munich.

Pete

[Bill Troiano]

I knew Tom from when we both studied with Harvey at IU. He played a Marzan back then, but I thought it had rotary valves. Did Marzan make a piston valve tuba?

[J.c. Sherman]

I was thinking Marzan too... and they made amazing piston tubas!

[Wyvern]

Here's the 'exception that proves the rule'. Who can identify the horn?

http://youtu.be/DeMmauRMbts" target="_blank" target="_blank

There is a good shot of the tuba at 5:35

I was amazed when I went to concert in Munich to see 6/4 CC being played in the Philharmonic Orchestra - then it was either a Nirschl, or Yorkbrunner.

It looked rather strange when there was work using two tubas and he was joined by presumably German player with what looked like a MW 25 BBb - the two tubas one short and fat, the other tall and slim

[bort]

Here's the 'exception that proves the rule'. Who can identify the horn?

http://youtu.be/DeMmauRMbts" target="_blank" target="_blank

There is a good shot of the tuba at 5:35

The leadpipe angle says Nirschl to me, but I can't tell much about the rest of the tuba. Doesn't look like a Marzan.

Also interesting that this video is almost 30 years old (yikes )...is that kind of around when new 6/4 BATs were starting to be designed/built?

[Rick Denney]

Here's the 'exception that proves the rule'. Who can identify the horn?

http://youtu.be/DeMmauRMbts" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

There is a good shot of the tuba at 5:35

Cellibidache was such an amazing conductor. Too bad he hated recordings--there is not much out there with him.

The tuba is not a 6/4, nor do I think it is a Marzan--I don't see the main slide pointed up. But it sure could have been made by Boehm and Meinl before Nirschl came along. My York Master is similar. My YM dates at least from the 60's, and it is likely they were trying to compete in the US market, mainly against King. The piston valves are superb. The most recent version is the B&M Symphonic 5500--a large 4/4 or 5/4.

Rick "not all B&M's are Marzans, and not all Marzans are B&M's" Denney

[eupher61]

pretty nasty intonation in the reeds though...sheesh!