Shoulder Tubas?

[Leland]

I don't know, but I cannot imagine, that it's very comfortably and easy, to
balance a big and heavy convertible on my shoulder, isn't it?
Uli

Believe it or not, the bigger the better.

If it's small, most of the weight is forward of the shoulder, which requires the player to hold up the weight with their arms. If it's big, and especially if it has the style of leadpipe which wraps around the right hand, it'll balance right there on the shoulder, and the player's hands are only there to keep it pointed the right direction.

I think they're a viable instrument -- if they're used where they work best. In most band-like situations, I'd use a sousaphone. They do have more visuals for parades and such, they can spin around, they don't need to be carried, and it's really easy to use flip folders with them.

But, in "corps-style" marching shows, I hate sousaphones. I really do. In any direction but straight ahead, they're uncomfortable. They keep banging on my hip, and the weird arm positions don't allow for easy sliding movement. Contras take all of those problems away, getting all the mass above the shoulder line, leaving the lower body to move & breathe easily.

Properly-designed contras are legitimate instruments. It's the bad versions that should be taken off the market (immediately, too, if I had anything to do about it).

**Oh, and weight is weight, whether it's from a sousaphone or a contra. A sousaphone does not rest its weight on anything but the shoulder -- the hips only serve to keep it from rotating. Most sousaphones weigh more than most contras, and it's still going to be supported by your back. That's when proper posture & technique will save you.

[Charlie Goodman]

1) As Bloke mentioned, the ones I see for repair are just plain torn-up, significantly worse than their sousaphone counterparts. So, either local students take care of their sousaphones better than they do over-the-shoulder contras (doubtful), or the sousaphones are just more durable as a school marching tuba (the most likely answer).

I'm fairly sure it's because you set down a contra way more often than a sousaphone, and because horn manuals often have them being slammed into the ground to go to parade rest. Also, about the back argument, as it's been said, they balance pretty well on the shoulder, and the arms basically keep them from falling off. It seems that the main part of the weight is put on the same area of the shoulder, so I don't really see how there could be significant health differences in that respect. However, it seems like holding the tuba at attention out in front of the body would put a lot of strain on the back.
As far as sound, our yamaha convertibles at school seem to sound as good as any sousaphone, and I can hardly see how being shaped more like a normal tuba would hurt the sound.

[Bandmaster]

I've played on various sousaphones for over 35 years and I can say there are good ones and bad ones. If you get a good one it can out play ANY contra style horn made. I have been marching a contra in a senior drum corps for almost three years now and I can give these observations. Contras do look very cool on the field in the drill. They look much more uniform with the rest of the corps. But the only contra that can get a good sound "off" the field, by that I mean getting the sound to the audience, are the BIG bore models. The smaller contras, which is the category where almost all convertibles belong, might as well go into the trash heap. I find no difficulty march a contra from a physical balance standpoint. What make a contra hard on the shoulders and back is when you are holding it in front of you while you are NOT playing. I have attended countless field show conrests and band reviews over the years and the a major difference between the sound of the sousaphone and the contra is resonance. The sousaphone sound will spread and surround you while a contra remains more directional. Also the further away from the ensemble you are, the better a sousaphone sounds. It just projects better over distance than a contra can. It has to be the design of the bell. The wider, flatter sousaphone bell just seems to give the sousphone a big advantage because of its ability to "radiate" sound better.

[Tabor]

Here is some zen-like thinking on the subject straight from one of my pre-kindergarten students.


They make the notes loud.

They go Toot toot toot on the notes real loud.

[ThomasDodd]

I marched a Conn convertible in high school. I much prefered it to the sousaphones I've marched since. It was a rairity though, since it was a front action horn. It was worn on the right shoulder, with the valves, orver the shoulder, near the ear. It was no where near as uncomfortable as a sousaphone is.

I'm still geting used to the left shoulder, Drum Corps bugle. The valve positioning is "interesting". Much better than top action convertibles, though not as natural feeling as the right shoulder mounted front action tuba. Getting used to a GG horn is another story.

The problem I've seen is the convertibles tend to abused more. They get set on the bells, which aren't really as string as they should be, and set down har/dropped a lot. With proper bracing on the outer warps, the other denting wouldn't be a problem either. We did som cool spins/twrils with those horns. Try twrilling a sousaphione around your body. Lots dow the spins, and I'm sure it doesn't extend the horns life.

My horn was in good shape after 3 years, but 3 years later it was trashed. How much was the horn and how much they player?

[Uncle Buck]

When I was in high school, we used Conn convertable tubas for marching. I found the sound of those to be pretty bad, and they couldn't handle much volume without getting blatty. I also could never get the leadpipe to be stable - it always felt rubbery and moved around a lot.

However, we were able to do a pretty neat trick. We could set the tuba down on the rim of the bell, and with the correct technique, we could spin the tubas a full 360 degrees, then land them on our shoulders. I guess we were lucky no one ever broke a collarbone.

Contras are obviously the better choice for a drum and bugle corp where all the instruments are of similar designs. I think they are absolutely a terrible choice for a high school band.

[Leland]

However, we were able to do a pretty neat trick. We could set the tuba down on the rim of the bell, and with the correct technique, we could spin the tubas a full 360 degrees, then land them on our shoulders. I guess we were lucky no one ever broke a collarbone.

Take that idea further and you can do them from about waist level, or on the move, or spin off the shoulder and then back on, or start them horizontally (bell to the right, bow to the left, grab the big pipe at the center with your palm facing away, and spin it up)...

Contras are obviously the better choice for a drum and bugle corp where all the instruments are of similar designs.

It's not just for uniformity, although that was certainly part of the original contra design in the late 50's-early 60's. It's just worlds easier to march that style of drill with a contra than it is with a sousaphone.

I'll say that drum corps tradition has a lot to do with it, too. Even though BBb tubas have been legal since 2000, sousaphones -- and other non-contra-style tubas -- are expressly forbidden. It's just like how you'll never see a contra dot the "i" in Ohio State's band.

I've only been doing both since about 1987, but I hope I learned that much.

[jaredsan]

Why do drum and bugle corps. prefer contras if there are "so many" advantages to having a sousaphone? Maybe sousas blend better with woodwind instruments, or their mellow sound fits in more with the smaller sound created by high school bands.

It all depends on application. (why I believe contras are a "viable" alt. for sousaphones)

[Captain Sousie]

Why do drum and bugle corps. prefer contras if there are "so many" advantages to having a sousaphone?

'Uniformity of sight and sound'

[TexTuba]

[jaredsan]

At least there's one advantage to the workout from holding a contra at attention... chizzled arms!!

I must have been ripped off

[Leland]

Why do drum and bugle corps. prefer contras if there are "so many" advantages to having a sousaphone? Maybe sousas blend better with woodwind instruments, or their mellow sound fits in more with the smaller sound created by high school bands.

The first contrabasses weren't much bigger than baritone bugles of the time, and I expect that there were regulations regarding their basic design. But, that's over 40 years ago.

Like I keep saying, they're easier to march with when you go any direction besides forwards. Probably 95% of that style of drill is done at any direction other than straight ahead.

The sound does blend better with the rest of the brass, especially in a drum corps' concept of ensemble. Sousaphones are a pretty different style of instrument from the rest of the brasses, and do their job of providing a base of bass for the band to play over. Corps hornlines are treated more like a brass choir (indeed, the G bugles were called sopranos, altos, baritones, and contrabasses), and the contras are usually written as a bass voice to the brass as opposed to a separate tuba instrument.

[Bandmaster]

There are only two bell front brass instruments mentioned by name in the DCI rules that are NOT allowed to be used by a drum corps. They are the trombone and the sousaphone. I don't care what drum corps people claim about contra basses, they DO NOT sound better than a good sousaphone. I have never heard or seen anyone ever try sousaphones with a drum corps hornline to really find out how they sound. I do know that I have stood in front of the finest hornlines that DCI has to offer and listened carefully to the quality of the sound. Up close contras sound really very nice, but when it comes time for the real performance on the field, you don't get to stand dead center only 30 feet away. In drum corps the contra plays the bass part for the ensemble... in marching band the sousaphone plays the bass part for the ensemble... the arranger treats them the same.

A sousaphone can project a slightly smoother sound for a greater distance than a contrabass bugle can, every experience I have tells me this. I have followed drum corps closely since 1975 and I was a band director and judge for 20 years. Your perception depends on what experience YOU have. If you have played on some bad sousaphones you will think contras might be better and visa versa. Right now I am playing a King K90 in a senior corps. Many feel the K90 is the still the best contra ever made. The one I play drives me crazy because it is SO out of tune! I have played on DEG and Kanstul GG contra as well and both the sousaphones I own (Olds and Conn) out play them quality wise. But, I would NEVER advocate that drum corps should march sousaphones.

In drum corps the visual aspect of the hornline is every bit as important as the musical quality. With contras you can achieve a visual uniformity that is just not possible if you would use sousaphones. The movements of the horns, or "horn manuals" in drum corps terminology, through instruments up and down, horn flashes, turns, direction of march changes, are all very uniform in appearance. And in drum corps that is the whole idea.... uniformity! While I have seen many marching bands use contra style marching tubas, none have ever shown me the musical quality of an equally talented band using good sousaphones. But the contras do look cool...

[Hank74]

I have never tried a contra, even though I would like to try one just to see how it plays.

I am a sousaphone person simply because of it's ability to produce the bass sound while doing so conveniently compared to a regular sit-down tuba.

Guess where I stand is whatever instrument is best for a particular situation or person is fine with me.

The nice thing about the tuba is it comes in different versions and styles (regular tuba, sousa, contra, helicon, orenophone, etc.). Can trumpeters and trombonists say that?

Hank74

[Steve Marcus]

The nice thing about the tuba is it comes in different versions and styles ...Can trumpeters and trombonists say that?

[GC]

In the '70's when the corps-inspired movement from sousaphones to over-the-shoulder conversions began, a lot of directors were having custom conversions done because Yamaha, Conn, and the others had not yet begun to offer them as a feature. Most of the conversions that were heard sounded great compared to the marching standard instrument of the day, the Conn fiberglass flower planter. If the least thing went wrong with an early fiber horn, the sound went to pot immediately, and most of the bands (not all) who used those things had lousy bass ends. The bigger convertable Yamahas and later the Kanstuls had a really good sound, but the majority of smaller horns sounded like peashooters.

A fair number of directors began marching upright tubas with front bells, and they generally got good results. In my opinion, an section full of Conn 20Js or old King 2341s sounds as good as or better than most OTS horns. They're easier on the students physically, don't suffer as much damage, and are generally less fragile. Since they're no longer manufactured, though, they'll eventually go the way of the dodo.

Unfortunately, many of the band directors of that day (and many since then) are contemptuous of sousaphones and will not allow them in their bands. Even though they offer a lower and better center of gravity, are more easily manerverable, cause fewer physical complaints, and don't tear up as badly (except for the necks), bigotry against sousaphones is rampant.

There are directors who don't want sousaphones in a concert band, and I can see their point to some extent. Some prefer the reflected sound of an upright bell to the directional sound of a sousaphone. Some feel that sousas take up too much space when seated. If a band can only afford one set of horns, it comes down to balancing the demands of marching and concert band, and some directors feel that convertable uprights deliver the best compromise for the buck. Others have no problem with sousaphones in a concert band. Both work. I have a friend who uses Kings and who uses front bells for marching and upright bells for concert, neatly solving the problem. Of course, the ideal situation is two sets of horns, but how many bands can afford to do thatl?

[Leland]

Just had to say that, as I've written already, I'm not against sousaphones in most band situations; in fact, I'd prefer them to contrabasses. I'd hate to deal with reading music while carrying a contra (in fact, I never have to), and I'd get worn out if I had to swing back & forth with one while playing for every football touchdown.

For corps-style drill, the contra is the better choice for the reasons I've said before. For nearly everything else, the sousaphone is better. I've done both, I've lived with both for months at a time.

Both of them still require properly training the players so that they look good and won't hurt themselves too severely.