Observations of Silver against Lacquer finish

[Wyvern]

Those that know me well will know I have personally always bought lacquer tubas in preference to silver-plated partly because I like the look of lacquer brass (particularly gold-brass), the feel to touch and the fact they don't need polishing. I have always thought the finish makes no difference to the sound, so which to have is purely cosmetic preference.

However over the last few weeks I have had multiple professional players who have wanted to try selection of tubas to pick out the best on sound and to my amazement in every case they have chosen silver over lacquer because of brighter tone and greater projection. And it is not their imagination - I can hear the difference standing out front. The lacquer tubas, or euphoniums (it has applied to Wessex euphoniums, CC tubas and EEb tubas) always sounds smaller, more mellow and does not project as much as the silver - while one nickel plated EEb I got sounds completely dead of resonance and that alone is enough for me to not get any more, even if it was not for the health concerns debated previously.

I think this very interesting! I was playing a silver-plated Wessex EEb in band this evening as the only tuba (rather than my usual lacquer one) and the conductor commented on what a big tone I was making

PS I must now get a raw brass one to compare

[k001k47]

A silver vs lacquer thread? Bad form, sir. Thanks for the insight, though.

Maybe the lacquer JB uses is a thick coating? . . .

[MartyNeilan]

Maybe the lacquer JB uses is a thick coating? . . .

That has been my thought - either the thickness or the formula; most likely thickness. There just seemed to be something "deadening" the sound on my Schiller CC slightly. If I had kept the horn I would have probably tried stripping it. It was otherwise a very nice tuba and behaved better at full volume than many of its originators. Last I heard, it fell out of the back of the current owner's truck and got run over several dozen times on the Interstate. That is one way to try to strip the lacquer off!
I had talked to both Al and Michael at bringing in unlacquered horns, but at the time the JB factory was not willing to do that.

[Gilligan]

If you look around you can find the research paper created by Reynolds Schike on the subject. He found that with trumpets the layer of lacquer deadend the response of the brass. While gold or silver plating could not be distingused from each other.

[Wyvern]

Maybe the lacquer JB uses is a thick coating? . . .

I don't know - if it is thicker lacquer then good for longevity, but with maybe slight side effect. We are not talking huge effect to tone (maybe 5%), but still discernible by top player.

In some cases, I can see the greater mellowness is more desirable, for example compensating for player with slightly harsh tone.

I still like the feel and look of lacquer more - so am a bit torn both ways which to play myself.

[Lingon]

Maybe the lacquer JB uses is a thick coating? . . .

...I still like the feel and look of lacquer more - so am a bit torn both ways which to play myself...

My old Higham tuba is raw brass and sounds good, however with that one it is a bit difficult to find something similar to compare with

This has been debated back and forth about trombones as long as I ave been active in playing. I believe it is highly relevant to tubas too, as you have found some examples of. So the next step may be as you said to try raw brass instruments to compare with. There is also one step between, so to say, that could be tested, that was popular amongst trbn players earlier. Just strip the bell flare and leave the rest lacquered. I have two instruments that are like that and even though no instrument is like any other I like these two very much, a Selmer and a Bach. At least for me and those that have listened they sounds a bit more 'singing' with maybe some of the overtones more pronounced.

Then it is of course also possible to experiment with different types and thickness of lacquer, compare with the Stradivarius violins where a modern epoxy not should do so good for the sound...

Btw, I just got my Pbone

[skeath]

Some years ago, when I was teaching at Colorado State Univ, we started a debate on this subject. We happened to have two euphonium players in a brass performance class, playing identical Bessons (one lacquered, one silver-plate). BTW, the players were not equal in skill level or sound. We had them each play something, then switch horns and play again. The observers, students and faculty, were nearly unanimous in the judgement that the silver Besson sounded better, no matter who played it.

SK

[Lingon]

There is also one step between, so to say, that could be tested, that was popular amongst trbn players earlier. Just strip the bell flare and leave the rest lacquered.

And then don't expect the next owner to pay for your experiment.

Hehe, you would not pay extra for an instrument that that sounds better?

I think it works with cimbassi too

[PMeuph]

Some years ago, when I was teaching at Colorado State Univ, we started a debate on this subject. We happened to have two euphonium players in a brass performance class, playing identical Bessons (one lacquered, one silver-plate). BTW, the players were not equal in skill level or sound. We had them each play something, then switch horns and play again. The observers, students and faculty, were nearly unanimous in the judgement that the silver Besson sounded better, no matter who played it.

SK

Could it just be that the silver plated horn was of better quality, regardless of the plating?

[cambrook]

Could it just be that the silver plated horn was of better quality, regardless of the plating?

I'm always amazed how often this simple explanation gets overlooked.
Everyone who has had the opportunity to compare multiple tubas of the same type will tell you that they don't all play the same - even if they come from the same batch from a high-quality manufacturer.

I've not had the chance to compare multiple tubas from a Chinese manufacturer, but I imagine that the variation between samples would also be noticeable.

[k001k47]

http://tinyurl.com/I-wuv-cheeeze

beeezzeeechurgerb

[Lingon]

http://tinyurl.com/I-wuv-cheeeze

Mahillon's raw material??

[MaryAnn]

Despite the appearance of food posts....

Walter Lawson, who used to make very high quality handmade French horns, did a study on a horn's frequency response. He recorded the horn without lacquer and then lacquered it and did the same tests. Of course a human playing an instrument is a highly variable variable, but his result was that the lacquer dampened the high frequencies by a few percent. He said it didn't matter because simply opening the hand in the bell a small amount (which a competent player would do unconsciously to get the tone s/he wanted) made up the difference. Of course this is a lacquer-vs-non-lacquer study but it might apply.

[picture of food here]

MA