Doubler's troubles

[chronolith]

Looking for some help about low range problems on bass trombone. I post here because it might just have to do with being a tuba player.

Picked up the bass trombone a couple of weeks ago to play some gigs that needed bass but no tuba. No trouble in middle and high register. No trouble with pedals on down to about F. Something happens starting at about the Ab/G at the bottom of the staff and goes down to about F/E. I get an awful wobbling in the tone.

I can get around this by playing very loudly or playing short notes. Obviously this is not going to help me with Brahms though. I also have found that shifting my embouchure up a little bit in the mouthpiece tends to help sometimes, but does not seem optimal. As a tuba player that kind of wobble tells me that I am not getting enough air through the horn. I play a Neptune normally and I feel like I can move a lot of air. When I put more air through the bass trombone in that range the problem gets much worse. The horn resists me quite a bit and the sensation becomes that I putting too much air through the horn. If I back WAY off the notes center better but the tone is thin and just plain crappy.

As far as mpcs go, I am working with a Shires Vintage 1G (quite large, thin rim, pronounced wobble) and a Schilke 60 (tiny bit smaller, thin-ish rim, more consistent and easier to control but somewhat limiting, still wobbles).

It feels and sounds like I am driving an old diesel manual shift Volkswagen and I accidentally shifted into 4th gear rather than second while going 20mph. wobwobwobwobwobwob....

Needless to say, it's very annoying and not something I ever want to put on a stage. Any advice or experience with this kind of problem would be greatly appreciated.

[Ben]

I've had this trouble before, I don't know what the solution to the problem was, but I changed two things about the same time and things solidified better:
1. (equipment) Smaller MP: Schilke 59
2. (attitude) more practice, rochuts, scales.

I think I was just trying to blow the thing like a tuba. I'm betting someone with much more experience will have a more astute observation for you. Good luck

[Ace]

Have you checked the alignment of your rotor(s)?

Ace

[eupher61]

IF you're trying to blow like on a tuba, that could be part of it. Finding the magic point between the two feels is the key.

Yes, the alignment on the rotors could be a part of it.

Assuming you've checked the water key already.

My biggest problem has always been trying to use too big a mouthpiece. I did dig out a small shank F tuba mouthpiece, though, that really does seem to work for me, except for the shank size. We'll see what a trim job will do.

[chronolith]

Alignment on the valves was the first thing I checked. Looks good there.

I went back to the mouthpiece drawer and found an old no-name trombone mouthpiece. Bach knock-off most likely. It did make a difference with the wobble, while I much prefer the sound of the larger mpcs. As Ben points out I am sure there is a good portion of this that has to do with just working it out, but right now selecting a proper mpc is the lowest hanging fruit as they say.

I think I want to look at something less bowl-shaped also. Anybody have any good experiences with G&W on bass trombone?

I fully admit that I made the mistake of thinking that a tuba player needs the largest possible mpc to play bass trombone. Now I just need to find a place to try a bunch of different mpcs.

[MartyNeilan]

Find a good trombone teacher.
Seriously.
Bass trombone and tuba are two totally different instruments.

[MaryAnn]

Do other bass trombonists have the same problem using your equipment? if not.....try using their equipment and see if you have the same problem. That will define what is wrong pretty clearly.

MA

[PMeuph]

I've read this article and applied the concepts many times over the past several years. The author is talking about Euphonium-trombone doubling but, in my opinion many of the issues addressed can be easily adapted to tuba/bass trombone doubling.

http://bands.army.mil/masterclass/tusab ... m_euph.htm" target="_blank

I also find that working on Schlossberg drills everyday helps a lot.

[tbn.al]

Thanks for posting that article. I wish I had access to it 10 or 12 years ago. It would have saved me a bunch of time figuring out that stuff by myself. Not sure I've got it all down now anyway. Great article!

[PMeuph]

Thanks!

__
The internet has become an invaluable resource for all musicians. This is an abridged youtube video of a warm up by Ben Van Dijk. His Glissando exercise might be exactly what you need.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p3SzxLqlao" target="_blank

[tbn.al]

Been listening to Ben for years. His low regsister is insane. Trombone is not my weak point however, been doing it for 55 years. My problem is tuba. Trying to get my mind around tuba has been a project. This forum has helped immensely.

[Lingon]

The most important thing to understand is that they are different instruments as Marty points out. Then because of that it is also important to approach the instruments differently. Thanks PMEuph for the link about doubling, excellent and very useful points regarding euphonium/trombone but the concept should work equally well for the larger instruments.

My personal experience when I first tried to play a tuba was that I tried to play it like a trombone, with little success. However when thinking about it and accepting them as different constructions then it worked better. Generally I think every instrument will work best with a matching mouthpiece which mean that a bass trombone played with a tuba mouhtpiece is a no go and vice versa. Also, for me at last, smaller bass trombone mouthpieces works better with older instruments like Holtons, vintage Bachs and so on while large pieces often are not so good for these instruments. The mentioned Schilke 59 is good for someone but also slightly smaller ones like the 58, Bach 1,5G, 2G and some other smaller pieces are worth investigating even if they firstly may feel almost like a trumpet mpc.

Try to find a trustful trombone teacher and then the usual recipe is practice, practice and practice. If you approach the instruments as different ones and practice both for some time you will eventually be comfortable switching back and forth at the same gig, even in the same piece of music.

The most important, always have fun!