Has anyone tried water instead of pitch?

[sousaphone68]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5LqrMcq ... ata_player" target="_blank
I saw this tonight a how it's made featuring Shires trombones their trick for bending crooks was to freeze water in the tube prior to bending.
There were some posts earlier this year about cerobend and pitch and the video set me to wondering if anybody had used the frozen water method?

[PMeuph]

I'm waiting for January, then I don't even need to use a freezer I can leave just them outside and take as long as I want...

[eupher61]

Conn had the hydraulic process in place in the 70s, didn't they?

[Dan Schultz]

I was in the UMI factory in Nogales, AZ shortly before it closed. They were using a 'witches brew' of water and a few 'secret' ingredients to bend saxophone necks. Since then... I've always wanted to do a little experimenting but never seem to have the time.

[Michael Bush]

Conn had the hydraulic process in place in the 70s, didn't they?

Before that, I believe. Well before, if I recall correctly (which I may not).

[Dan Schultz]

Conn had the hydraulic process in place in the 70s, didn't they?

Before that, I believe. Well before, if I recall correctly (which I may not).

Yes. I have a 1923 Conn Catalog 'C' that touts the virtues of 'hydro-forming'. This is not the same thing as bending that's supported by internal means, anyway. With hydro-forming... the tube is bent first and then placed into a form after which hydraulic pressure is used to expand the tube to the inside dimensions of the tooling. This method was/is used primarily for tube sections that have a taper.

[Lee Stofer]

Yes, Conn was a pioneer of hydro-forming by the 1920's, and Wenzel Meinl won an award about 1954 for pioneering it's use in Germany. My understanding is that now, even with hand-formed parts, they are put in a mold to be finished to absolute accuracy with 2,200psi water pressure.

Hand-bending, as alluded to above, is quite a different issue, and a bit more tricky. If you get everything right, fine. If you don't, it can be miserable. I had a high school bring me a relatively new sousaphone about 7 years ago, where the 1st branch (largest branch) was just covered with spider cracks. The branch had been formed with ice, I was told by someone in the industry, and apparently it had not been annealed sufficiently. The sousaphone was out of any warranty period, and the school did not have the budget to have me order a new silver-plated branch and replace it, so I think they covered the branch in silver duct tape and used it that way.

Bending with an ice formula seems to be the newest approach, and may be tied to eliminating as many Hazmat items in production as possible. Bending with pitch has been around for some time, but is rather temperature-sensitive, also, as it has to be kept right about 70 degrees Fahrenheit. I like bending with lead, as that is how I learned to do it in Germany. Yes, I try to avoid breathing fumes when melting it, and breathing protection should always be worn, but in the working stage, lead is much friendlier to work with, and over a wider range of temperatures. If a replacement pipe for a Conn, etc., comes pitch-filled, I will use it, as it is an easy bend, anyway. But if I am bending a pipe for an old Alexander or something else that is complex and challenging, I go for all the help I can get.

[sousaphone68]

Thank you to the technicians that posted replies.
I was intrigued by the video and what looked like a simpler, cheaper and slightly safer way of bending pipes.
But judging from the posts it is a method that works but requires great skill and experience to do it correctly and safely.
I have no pretensions to trying this for my self but I search regularly for videos showing the manufacture or repair of brass instruments as it intrigues and amazes me seeing sheet brass being turned into instruments.

[glangfur]

When I was doing sales for Shires, they were using frozen water/soap for cylindrical tubes (followed by balling out to smooth out and re-round) and pitch for tapered tubes (followed by a couple of different methods to smooth out the wrinkles, depending on the part). I believe they have done some hydroforming experiments since then, but I don't think they've adopted that method.