2 tone fifth valve?

[Bob Kolada]

I'm getting a non comp 4 valve euph and want a fifth valve on it (passing by comp horns for several reasons). I've never really played a two tone fifth valve, what are it's advantages? Can I play down to the fundamental without messing with the slides?
I actually REALLY want a fifth and sixth valve on this horn but am trying to keep it reasonable.

[Ben]

Of all of the 5th valve rigs, I like the minor 3rd the best. It allows for full chromatic decent an octave.

In Bb should be like this:
512 for your standard 24 B/E
523 for Eb
54 or 234 for your low D
514 for Db
534 for C
5134 for B above pedal
51234 or pedal Bb...

Should work well for Euph, although I've never seen one in this config.

[Ferguson]

If you have a Yamaha 321 euph, we offer a flat whole step 5th rotor for $650 that plugs into the 4th slide, allowing the full chromatic scale down to the pedal Bb like this:

F 4
E 24
Eb 45
D 234
Db 134 or 345
C 2345
B 12345
Bb 0

The stacked rotor doesn't work without the 4th valve in play, so 235 B or E doesn't work. The new MW 2260 F tuba has the same issue with its stacked 5th and 6th rotors.

Flat whole step rotors like this seem to be the best way to get the quint note in tune, in this case, the low Eb. With the stacked setup and the long 2 step 5th rotor, the low D would be an easy 45, but the Eb would still be troublesome, since 235 is not possible.

Two step old style 5th rotors are nice for getting the low notes with one fewer rotors in play, and the convenient 125 fingering instead of 24. Also, this tuning matches the common tuning for the 2nd rotor on most modern bass trombones, making some possibility of translation of scale patterns between several instruments.

Some Alexander contrabass tubas and tenor tubas have a flat 1/2 step 5th rotor, tuned like the 6th rotor on some F tubas. I think you still miss the note 1/2 step above the fundamental with this tuning, but I haven't played it much.

Best,

Ferguson

[Bob Kolada]

Thanks guys! This would definitely be an independent valve, though dependent 5+6 in the fourth sounds neat!

[Ben]

Some Alexander contrabass tubas and tenor tubas have a flat 1/2 step 5th rotor, tuned like the 6th rotor on some F tubas. I think you still miss the note 1/2 step above the fundamental with this tuning, but I haven't played it much.

Aside: I have one of these. The 1/2 step above the pedal requires a long pull on one with lipping down, or a pull on 1&5 (possible the way the horn is configured). Or the ever popular false tone, which I prefer to avoid.

Good luck in your search Bob.

[Bob Kolada]

Anyone else?

[TheHatTuba]

If you get a 5th and a 6th valve tuned to a flat 1 and a flat 1/2 step, then 5+6 combo will give you the equivalent of a m3 valve. The miras I've have with the m3 valve was really nice for the pedal, not as unfocused as the typical open.

[pjv]

I have or have owned a B&S Symphonie F & a Miraphone 186 CC w/minor 3rd 5th valves plus a Kanstul 80 and a Conn/UMI 56J w/ flat major 2nd 5th valves.

Even though the flat M2nd seems to be standard I prefer the m3rd. My B&S even has a lovely trigger (made by the late Larry Minnick!) and I honestly must say I never use it. Shame, really, seeing as it is well constructed and was built by an A-class craftsman.

These are all completely different tubas, so a comparison is almost useless. I honestly can't tell you if its a coincidence or not, but both m3rd tubas play the half step above the fundamental (F# & C# respectfully) much more open and reliable than their -M2nd counterparts. Both m3rd tubas were also easier to tune in the lower register.

Both m3rd instruments are also German style tubas. So is this all the result of the 5th valve length, build philosophy, luck, coincidence, all of the above and more????? Who can say.

I would imagine that the basic length of the 5th couldn't be the responsible for the tuning quality in this register (I could be wrong). Resistance is another matter.

Having said that, I'm giving my Kanstul another 6 months to shape up, otherwise I'm ordering a longer 5th slide (or selling the horn).

Good luck
Pat