Note length for a Tuba

[riffwraith]

Hi all, I do not play the Tuba, but was hoping someone could shed some light on something for me.

Here is a short sample of someone playing a single note:

http://www.jeffreyhayat.com/tubaex.mp3" target="_blank"

The Q I have is regarding the length - is that the longest that a player can play a note at that dyn level in that range? Again, I don't play, but I know enough to know that the tuba requires a lot of breath. But that seems kinda short to me. When playing f (or would the above sample be double or triple f ?) that low, is it unreasonable to assume the player will be able to play longer than that - or is that about as long as anyone can play a single note at that dyn level in that range?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[Michael Bush]

(Writer?)

There are plenty of people here in a better position to answer than I, but since your question has been hanging out there for a while, I'll give you what little I've got:

It would depend on the player, but the lower and louder you go, the less duration you can sustain. And that's low and (judging by the tone) loud. I certainly would be proud to hold it that long.

[Timmm]

It would take impressive lung capacity (and general breath control) to play that loud in that register for too much longer. In one breath anyways.

The player could always take a breath and re-articulate....many times.

[peter birch]

this is an interesting question, and the answer lies in a physiological parameter known as the vital capacity, put simply, it is the amount of air you can exhale following a maximal in breath. Depending on age, sex, weight, height and so on, it varies between 3 and 5 litres. Therefore, if a note at a particular volume needs an airflow of 2 litres per second, then you can only hold it for 1.5 -3 seconds as in the example above.
ONe little note on breath control, breathing is a bout 2 things, getting oxygen into the body, and getting carbon dioxide out, even if you can exert great control over your breathing, your body will take over and force you to exhale after a minute or so. Playing the tuba is a matter of making the most of of that 5 litres- and once its gone, you breathe in and do it all again

[gwwilk]

Another variable is also the setting of the 'long note'. The typical transcription of orchestral works for concert band just gives the string bass part with possibly some register modifications to the tuba section. This becomes a real challenge when the section is small because they have a hard time staggering their breathing while they sustain unrealistically long slurred passages and/or notes bar after bar. A larger section 'staggers' better. Some compositions for concert band contain such passages, but they're much more limited in scope. They do provide 'training wheels' for orchestral transcriptions, though.

[Rick Denney]

I'm at work and didn't listen to the recording, but I seem to recall that one of Jacobs's tests determined that a low note (maybe it was a low F) played at fortissimo requires 140 liters/minute flow. That's 2-1/3 liters per second. My vital capacity is perhaps 3 liters at my age, maybe a bit more. That means I can hold that note for a second or a hair longer to avoid the loss of sound quality that comes from trying to push out the last quarter of the lung capacity.

What most amateurs do is pinch off the flow and try to make up in pressure what they give up in flow, adding edge to the sound to make it sound loud. Doesn't work, of course. It just makes the sound blatty and weak. I should know; I've perfected that approach through long years of bad practice.

Better players are more efficient, in that they make more sound with a given amount of air. But Jacobs's measurement was of a better player. So, those of us with less efficiency have it worse. The only real choice for us is to play it less loudly, in the hopes that the quality of the sound will contribute more to the tutti than the loudness of it. Amateurs generally try to play too loudly, mostly because they struggle to play well softly.

Rick "wishing composers would think this through before writing 60 measures of non-stop music without the slightest break for breathing" Denney

[Bob Sadler]

long, low or loud - pick any two

Bob Sadler

[Mark Horne]

My guess is that this is a sample from an orchestral sound library. I have a library (EWQL) where the loudest tuba sample similarly bottoms out on a low C of similar length. My personal opinion is that they could have recorded a longer sample for that note if they wanted to. However, fortissimo pedal tones are more like special effects and one would not expect to see them scored for long note durations.

It's good to see that certain library developers will refuse to "loop" some samples so that users cannot create "impossible" performances; however, at the same time many (if not most libraries) fall well short of capturing an instruments full range or expressive potential.

[MaryAnn]

Why don't we tie in this thread with the circular breathing thread?

MA

[riffwraith]

Thanks for all the responses - I appreciate the time.

(Writer?)

Huh?!?!?

It would depend on the player, but the lower and louder you go, the less duration you can sustain. And that's low and (judging by the tone) loud.

Right!

It would take impressive lung capacity (and general breath control) to play that loud in that register for too much longer. In one breath anyways.

Ok, I guess that's the answer I was looking for. So the sample I provided is basically it, it would seem.

Longer or shorter depending on how loud you cranked up your speakers ...

Umm, not sure what speaker volume has to do with how long a player can play a single note...

My guess is that this is a sample from an orchestral sound library.

Correct - it is from Project SAM. And I agree with the "keeping it real" and not looping samples that can't be played "forever". My original question tho was centered around hiring a Tuba player (Tubist?) to do some sampling for me, and was wondering if that length is all I am going to be able to get. It would appear so.

Why don't we tie in this thread with the circular breathing thread?

Umm, why don't we not do that. No reason to. But if anyone is interested, the thread she is referring to is here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52545" target="_blank"

And thanks to everyone else who responded...just b/c I didn't quote you doesn't mean I didn't see and appreciate the response. Save, of course, for the football stadium comment...not quite sure where that came from, but anyway...

Cheers.

[Michael Bush]

(Writer?)

Huh?!?!?

Nothing really. I've just had the experience before that in November people who are (or are fantasizing about being) novelists show up on discussion boards with such queries (trying to get a little detail right) because of this:http://www.nanowrimo.org. It was just a guess, and not important.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Here's a funny wrench to throw into the works...

I can play that low Eb approximately 3 times longer, at the same volume level, when it's the open pedal tone on an Eb tuba than when it's a "long-fingered" note on a C.

If Arnold Jacobs' observations about amount of air needed for certain note/dynamic combinations are accurate, then it shouldn't matter, eh?

[gwwilk]

Here's a funny wrench to throw into the works...

I can play that low Eb approximately 3 times longer, at the same volume level, when it's the open pedal tone on an Eb tuba than when it's a "long-fingered" note on a C.

If Arnold Jacobs' observations about amount of air needed for certain note/dynamic combinations are accurate, then it shouldn't matter, eh?

How did you measure the volume level?

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Here's a funny wrench to throw into the works...

I can play that low Eb approximately 3 times longer, at the same volume level, when it's the open pedal tone on an Eb tuba than when it's a "long-fingered" note on a C.

If Arnold Jacobs' observations about amount of air needed for certain note/dynamic combinations are accurate, then it shouldn't matter, eh?

How did you measure the volume level?

I don't "measure" it. It's pretty obvious that it's about the same volume level. It's certainly not 1/3 as loud on the open pedal that I can hold 3 times longer.

I use the Tommy Johnson "single lip" pedal-shift embouchure. One of the nice things about it is the ability to play really loud pedals without feeling like it takes very much air at all. I can't reconcile this with Jacobs' theory regarding amount of air needed as a constant for various pitch/volume combinations.

Am I alone here? Does anyone else think it takes a tremendously larger volume of air to produce a note that is a "long" fingering versus the same note as a pedal?

[thattubaguy]

I can do twice that and SWIM down to the mariana trench(NO SCUBA) before breakfast + I first get in an epic battle with chuck norris, 2 men enter, only one leaves

[thattubaguy]

I can play the same kind of note underneath the seats at the football stadium - same type of echo/re-verb and even louder

well...I can do it 15X as long, 10X as loud, for a solid 75 minutes (or, until I become bored with it - whichever comes first) after eating a generous Thanksgiving feast and running a casual a 35 mile / 3-hr. casual sprint.

(2x more than that)