Baritone vs. Euphonium

[bort]

...baritones are cylindrical and euphoniums are conical.

Bingo.

BTW, when I was in high school, it was explained that baritones have a forward bell, and euphoniums have an upright bell. I never really believe that!

[PMeuph]

Is the article you read this one?

http://www.dwerden.com/eu-articles-bareuph.cfm" target="_blank" target="_blank

If not all the information is well described and there are measurements and specs of both euphoniums and baritones.

While Euphnoiums generally do have larger bores when they are referred to as conical it usually refers to the tubing after the valve section. On all euphoniums the tubing after the valve section will start expanding. Just take a second to look at the tuning slide and realize that the two legs are of different sizes. That's' the conical part. On baritones there is usually a section of straight tubing after the valve sections and bell section. That's the cylindrical section.

[bort]

What is the "cornet = baritone" connection? Aren't cornets conical?

[Kevin Hendrick]

What is the "cornet = baritone" connection? Aren't cornets conical?

I am saying that the baritone is a larger, rounder tone than the trombone. It does not have a trombone tone, which is cylindrical. It is larger and less cylindrical than a trombone. It is sort of in between. The relationship between the three soprano brasses and the three tenor brasses are very similar in function.

The three main brass instrument families, IIRC, are:

• Cylindrical bore: trumpet & trombone
  In-between (half-n-half): cornet, alto horn & baritone
  Conical bore: flugelhorn, euphonium & tuba

[bort]

Ah, gotcha!

[Donn]

The three main brass instrument families, IIRC, are:

• Cylindrical bore: trumpet & trombone
  In-between (half-n-half): cornet, alto horn & baritone
  Conical bore: flugelhorn, euphonium & tuba

This seems to me like the lie that increasingly trips us up as we have to elaborate on it.

I mean, for sure the trombone is constrained to have extensive really cylindrical parts, but even there, often enough, the second side of the slide tube is made larger. It's probably useful, though not accurate, to say that the trumpet is cylindrical, as well. Close enough. And the valve trombone, and (for you, bloke) the cimbasso.

But after that, they're conical, in varying degree. Baritone might be among the narrowest, along with the European Bb tenor. Classic `monster' tubas might be the widest. Everything else is somewhere in between. Is alto horn really, typically, less conical than flugelhorn, as shown above? I doubt it, but I'd say it is often near the degree of conical-ness of an American baritone, true?

If we could give up on the artificial categories, the benefit to comprehension is this: as you introduce the very obvious-when-you-think-about-it notion that conical profile may vary in degree, you give people a second way to think about "big", so they don't have to tell each other for example that euphonium has a bigger "bore" than baritone.

[eupher61]

The instrument in the US, called a baritone horn, is a hybrid. It is neither a baritone nor a euphonium, in the British tradition.
Dave's article is the single best defining document.

[cjk]

If your baritone has one bell, it's worth $250.

If your baritone has two bells, then it's a euphonium and is worth $2500.

[oldbandnerd]

I've been asking this question for years ......

arrow06_down-20110827221859-00026.png

[butch]

Greg Monks says, that the origin of a (european style) baritone is the so called saxhorn family, while the euphonium belongs to the tuba family.

http://www.alsmiddlebrasspages.com/bras ... story.html" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/jul2001 ... 61604.html

[Rick Denney]

I liked that Klaus guy. Whatever happened to him?

He moved to London, after writing a book.

Rick "and before becoming an imperialist" Denney

[iiipopes]

What is the "cornet = baritone" connection? Aren't cornets conical?

I took it to mean the timbre not the physical properties of the horn.

Indeed!!!

WARNING: ARCHAIC COMMENT FOLLOWS

I am one of the few people left in the world that prefers "American" cornet tone (King Master Model/Silvertone, Reynolds Contempora, Olds Ambassador, Holton Collegiate, Conn Connstellation, etc.) and the "American" baritone-horn tone (same makers - the "classic" hybrid American instrument that lay between the British-style brass band baritone and euphonium, with the forward bell) in concert band. The cornets blend better as a section and with the rest of the brass, and the American baritone has a tonality that is not as cutting as a British baritone, nor as dark as a euphonium, so with a mixed ensemble can blend with either brass or woodwinds, and still come through on countermelodies of marches and other concert pieces when necessary.

I personally believe it is a tragedy that trumpets reign. My uncle, being the older sibling, played a King Silvertone cornet, having started school band @ the end of WWII when there was still a distinction, and trumpets were only played in jazz bands (oversimplified, but you get my point). My dad, being younger, and influenced by all the jazz players of the early to mid '50's, especially Harry James, had a King Super 20 trumpet (which I would love to recover, as it was stolen from me - see my signature). So for awhile I had both, and played both, in both concert band and jazz band, through high school and college, when I wasn't marching with a sousaphone, or finally resigning myself to tuba in college and grad school.

Likewise, the "horny" tonality of a good American baritone horn, with a mouthpiece that is not too large or too deep, like a Schilke 50 or equivalent, is just better tonally. When more trumpets showed up than Carter has pills at a summer band camp, but no baritone players, I volunteered to play baritone, and I was outfitted by the college with a really good King front-bell instrument. Here's the funny part: (remember - this is as a high school student between sophomore and junior years) they asked if I read treble or bass clef. Having had piano, trumpet, and tuba, I answered both. They looked dumbfounded. They asked, yes, but which one. I finally had to tell them to send back a folder of each, because the parts can differ. They were amazed. Between that and playing co-lead trumpet in the jazz band section, I earned camper-of-the-year.

Conversely, there is a gentleman who plays principal trumpet in a community concert band who has a Bach shepard's crook cornet. His musicality is stellar. But his tone is too dark to carry properly, and his solos seem to never have the presence they could have.

And don't get me started on flugelhorns, from the dark, smoky, inimitable tone of a real Couesnon (the standard by which all others are judged), through the lyrical tones of Courtois horns, to some of the modern horns that have too large a bore, and well, never mind. A friend of mine has a '50's Couesnon, and another mutual acquaintence, upon playing it, asked if he would trade it. Our acquaintence said that all he had to trade for the flugel was his car, his house, his business, his wife, etc....

The point being: I've played them all. I have family history to go with it. My preferences are based in real-time experience, with my high school band director being Navy trained.

American cornets and American baritone-horns for mixed winds concert bands.
Trumpets for jazz bands.
Sax-horn style baritones and Besson-style euphoniums for British-style brass bands.
Shepards crook cornets for British-style brass bands (as they tend to have slightly larger bores and a larger bell throat than American "straight" cornets).

[Donn]

Sousa and Fillmore and probably others wrote seperate cornet parts, trumpet parts, baritone parts, and euphonium parts for a reason.

Did they? Thought that was a British brass band thing. We see different parts for treble and bass clef, but they look the same to me otherwise. Liberty Bell, Invincible Eagle for examples that I happen to have on hand. As for the instruments, I'd expect an older American baritone to have similar `middle of the road' proportions to the later ones, but am not so familiar with the really antique stuff from Sousa's early years. I think that may have been around the end of the period where what we'd call a baritone was the Bb bass, but don't take my word for it!

[imperialbari]

Time doesn’t allow me digging down in Sousa’s settings right now, but from working with the topic a couple of years ago I remember a development from CW-era bands with only very few woodwinds over a brass band type line-up. The lowest part was Eb tuba. The tenor/baritone range had a Baritone as the lead playing what today is considered a euphonium part. A high Bb bass played the bass line in octaves/unison with the Eb bass. Two Bb Tenors played supporting lines. The tenors and the high bass over time developed into 1st, 2nd, and bass trombone parts.

Klaus

[pjv]

Hmmm,
isn't anybody gonna' take a shot at fitting the tenor tuba into this picture?

[GC]

There are plenty of good examples of late 19th and early 20th century scoring at http://www.bandmusicpdf.org. Here's a good example of old-style instrumentation in one of the most neglected Sousa marches (and my favorite march trio): http://www.bandmusicpdf.org/media/bmpdf ... OfFair.pdf

It includes Piccolo and Piccolo in C (the first part a Db piccolo part), soprano saxophone, horns in F and Eb, Eb soprano and alto clarinets, baritone in treble clef and bass clef euphonium (identical parts), 3rd trombone or Bb bass, and then basses (almost all of which can be easily played on Eb bass).

Everyone with interest in historical instrumentation should take time to look through this site. For example, it contains the 1921 version of the Holst First Suite, which has a few distinct differences from the modern published version, and which I like better.

Addendum: Some parts I forgot to mention in Fairest of the Fair earlier: trombone parts are labeled Tenor or Trombone 1 & 2, Trombone 3 or Bb Bass, and both sets of parts are there in both treble and bass clefs.

[Donn]

isn't anybody gonna' take a shot at fitting the tenor tuba into this picture?

3rd trombone or Bb bass

What do you think - does the shoe fit?

[hup_d_dup]

As the trumpet evolved, over the last century, to be more and more cornet-like, the difference in sound became more a product of the mouthpieces than the instruments themselves. If you can fit a cornet mouthpiece to a trumpet, it will sound like, if not a cornet, at least more like a cornet than trumpet. If you can fit a trumpet mouthpiece to a cornet, it will sound like, if not a trumpet, at least more like a trumpet than a cornet.

If you can get a trumpet mouthpiece into a flugelhorn, it really sounds nothing like a flugelhorn at all.

Hup

[iiipopes]

Sousa and Fillmore and probably others wrote seperate cornet parts, trumpet parts, baritone parts, and euphonium parts for a reason.

Did they? Thought that was a British brass band thing.

Indeed. I don't remember the names of the pieces, but in my high school band we played several pieces that had both cornet and trumpet parts. The cornet parts were, of course, the more lyrical parts, and the trumpet parts more fanfare oriented.