Stupid Newbie question re: Rudolf-Meinl 6/4

[svivian]

Hi, I think I may have introduced myself when I joined up, but in case I didn't:

I'm a former (recovering) musician, who played Horn for 15 years. When real life intruded and required that I have some sort of steady income, I had to leave it, but I never quite left the music. So, now that I have some time, and some (allegedly) disposable income, I want to get back into the playing thing. However, since I am no longer as young as I was, I decided not to take the Horn up again as it is incredibly demanding due to the tiny embouchure. Instead, I decided to challenge myself a different way, and take up the Tuba. I'm kind of hung up on the idea of getting the RM 6/4, just because it sounds like such an interesting instrument. I realize it is huge, and intended primarily for providing the foundation for the kind of orchestra that regularly plays late-Romantic German composers' material. I did also look through the thread about the practicality of the instrument posted by Steve Marcus:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52439&p=449145&hili ... nl#p449145" target="_blank
and I understand the concerns listed there, about being able to blend such a titanic instrument into an ensemble, and about playing alongside someone driving a RM 6/4. I also understand the difficulty involved in "focusing" such a huge instrument. I just want to think such an instrument would be capable of producing incredibly rich sound.

Therefore, I would be interested to know whether someone with a long background in a much smaller/higher-pitched instrument like the Horn might be uniquely able to provide that focus. I don't really consider myself a "beginner", because of my long history of abuse at the mouthpiece of the Horn, and I did get to the point where I was able to put more air into my instrument (a Holton/Farkas largebore) than it could handle.

Also, I am the kind of guy who would drive a Mercedes tour bus as a daily driver (or something equally eccentric).

So given my willingness to ignore the immediately-practical issues, just how uncontrollable is the RM 6/4 and is there any reason to think that, if I put the time into specifically learning to play that particular instrument, I could enjoy playing it? Can it be played delicately, or is it no more than a cannon?

[tubajon]

If you can buzz it, you can play it. Why not learn natural trumpet?

[Jay Bertolet]

There is no way anyone can really answer your question except you. Ultimately, it will be you that decides if playing this instrument will work for you. There just aren't cut and dried equations that you can reference to get the answers you seek. The only way to know is to get out there and try these horns for yourself. Good luck in your search!

[Ben]

Welcome.

Can it be played delicately, or is it no more than a cannon?

So here is the real question, can YOU play it delicately? The 6/4 is not a horn for mere mortals, and not something I would recommend to someone beginning to play the tuba, regardless of musical history. I have never played the Rudy, but I understand it is bigger than even my Alex 164. I drive my Alex in very select ensembles, where I know they can take the breadth of sound that comes from it. At these ludicrous sizes, volume is often not the issue, but overwhelming presence.

If you are serious about throwing down more than $20,000 on a Rudy 6/4, seek out one here in the states, or contact the company directly to schedule a visit to try one yourself.

Best of luck!

[svivian]

Thanks all for responding so quickly.

To Tubajon, I started on trumpet before I switched to Horn. Trumpet just doesn't "do it" for me.

To Jay Bertolet and Ben, I wish I could just breeze over to my local symphony or some nearby tubist who owns one and give it a whirl, but unfortunately as I live in India that is not an easy trip. I do understand that individual ability is a big part of whether an instrument is "right" or not, and that there is no guaranteed way to know whether that particular horn matches up to me aside from playing it. I also recognize that this is no mere band instrument found in any highschool instrument room, and that it will require significant effort for anyone to play well. However, I am hoping that I can at least discover whether it is possible for it to be usable and suitable, with care, in solo playing and in at least some types of ensemble playing. Obviously it is possible to use it anywhere you could use any other tuba, but is it possible to use it with any real degree of finesse beyond whatever level of immortality is necessary just to wield it?

I've never been one to go half-measures on something, and I tend to favor the view that unless actual injury is possible, it is better to get the best equipment possible and rise up to its level. Because of where I live, I believe it will be easier to start on and learn to play the Rudy well than it would to work my way through a series of lesser instruments as I build my skills (importing one instrument, especially at these prices, will be saner than bringing several in, plus the market for used tubas in India is nonexistent so they'd all pile up in my closet after I had replaced them). If it is possible, then I'll find a way to do it. I just need to know if that's within its capabilities. So if it is possible to play that instrument (eventually) in more ordinary settings, then I'll just have a go.

[svivian]

I do feel I need to mention that:

1) I'm not one of those people who buys expensive things just to have them and show them off

2) I don't want this just because hurr durr its the biggest so it must be the best

I am interested in this instrument because I really believe that it would be an incredible experience to learn to play, and that its size ought to enable it to produce an incredible sound.

As an analogy of sorts, I love organ music. I have several different recordings of the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D (kind of unavoidable), on several different instruments. The version on the Royal Albert Hall organ just sounds better than the one played on the Harvard organ.

[NDSPTuba]

As a former horn player ( 26 years ) and now Tuba player. I'd recommend a smaller easier to handle tuba to start out. And I'm not really talking about easy to handle in a playing sense, but a hold the damn thing in your lap sense. I suppose you could get a playing stand from the start and get the huge tuba to start. But that is a huge investment before you know if you really take to it or not. I'd also recommend a C tuba for fingering ease. I started by playing a community bands Bb tuba and man those fingers are screwed up. C tuba fingerings are the same as the French Horn ( C is open, F is 1st, Bb is 1st, etc ). Playing technical passages became so much easier for me once I picked up a C tuba. Another thing you'll notice that it takes 3 times as much air as a Horn does. I used to do allot of lip slurs and long tones to build endurance. Basically use an entire breath for 16 to 24 beats to get a nice long relaxed buzz in. On tuba a short 4 to 8 beat buzz is all a breath will get you, depending upon the dynamic you play. That is still the most frustrating thing about tuba for me. What used to be a one breath exercise for me is now a 4 breath exercise.

Lastly, let me encourage you to stay on Horn ( the only reason I'm playing Tuba is because embouchure dystonia ended my professional Horn playing career ). One, because there is a higher need for horn players than tuba players in most community bands and up. Well let me qualify that a little, it is allot harder to come my GOOD horn players than GOOD tuba players in community bands and up. I sit in my ( audition to qualify ) band and I still cringe at some of the sounds coming out of the horn section from time to time. Two, you can a get a top quality horn for allot less than a top quality tuba AND it will take you just as long to get competent at tuba as it will horn.

[iiipopes]

186.

[bort]

There are only a handful of these in existence, period, and even the greatest players alive today don't use Rudy 6/4's. Plain and simple, this is a bad idea.

A better idea is to get something smaller than the gigantic 6/4 tuba from RM. You could get a 4/4 or 5/4 RM tuba (both bigger than "usual"), or pretty much anything from Meinl-Weston or Miraphone. Those tubas are all played by lots of professionals, and no one would ever look at you with that tuba and think you are going half-measure on something, especially if it's brand new.

[svivian]

As a former horn player ( 26 years ) and now Tuba player. I'd recommend a smaller easier to handle tuba to start out. And I'm not really talking about easy to handle in a playing sense, but a hold the damn thing in your lap sense. I suppose you could get a playing stand from the start and get the huge tuba to start. But that is a huge investment before you know if you really take to it or not. I'd also recommend a C tuba for fingering ease. I started by playing a community bands Bb tuba and man those fingers are screwed up. C tuba fingerings are the same as the French Horn ( C is open, F is 1st, Bb is 1st, etc ). Playing technical passages became so much easier for me once I picked up a C tuba. Another thing you'll notice that it takes 3 times as much air as a Horn does. I used to do allot of lip slurs and long tones to build endurance. Basically use an entire breath for 16 to 24 beats to get a nice long relaxed buzz in. On tuba a short 4 to 8 beat buzz is all a breath will get you, depending upon the dynamic you play. That is still the most frustrating thing about tuba for me. What used to be a one breath exercise for me is now a 4 breath exercise.

Lastly, let me encourage you to stay on Horn ( the only reason I'm playing Tuba is because embouchure dystonia ended my professional Horn playing career ). One, because there is a higher need for horn players than tuba players in most community bands and up. Well let me qualify that a little, it is allot harder to come my GOOD horn players than GOOD tuba players in community bands and up. I sit in my ( audition to qualify ) band and I still cringe at some of the sounds coming out of the horn section from time to time. Two, you can a get a top quality horn for allot less than a top quality tuba AND it will take you just as long to get competent at tuba as it will horn.

I'm a pretty big guy, so I'm not worried about holding it. I appreciate the observation on the fingering, though having done both trumpet and horn fingerings, I don't mind adding another pattern. I pretty much expected that the larger instrument would need more air, so that's already figured into my calculations. Really, the practical considerations aren't that important.

Also, I'm just not interested in the horn anymore. It became too much like a chore rather than being enjoyable. As I am not in the US anymore, I won't be playing in any community bands.

[svivian]

There are only a handful of these in existence, period, and even the greatest players alive today don't use Rudy 6/4's. Plain and simple, this is a bad idea.

A better idea is to get something smaller than the gigantic 6/4 tuba from RM. You could get a 4/4 or 5/4 RM tuba (both bigger than "usual"), or pretty much anything from Meinl-Weston or Miraphone. Those tubas are all played by lots of professionals, and no one would ever look at you with that tuba and think you are going half-measure on something, especially if it's brand new.

Not sure why having something that there are only a few of is a bad idea, and as far as there being no "great" players using one today, I would say both: "not yet, anyway", and "only dead fish go with the flow".

[Steve Marcus]

FWIW, the following was posted earlier this year on TubeNet by a 6/4 Rudy owner who plays for his own enjoyment:

For this horn, you really have to play it with a stand as it is way too heavy and big to handle on your lap.
It plays really great and in all fairness, this horn is at his best for Wagner & Prokofiev style (heavy), and concert band music.

[jeopardymaster]

I've never played one of those 6/4 RMs. This horn is the biggest BBb I've ever played (in terms of weight and overall dimensions other than bore) and it's for sale. I don't think I'd be able to manage it in a small ensemble or for an especially delicate acoustic situation, but it is a fine-playing horn. Why not give this one a try first? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=47037&hilit=martin+gnagey" target="_blank" target="_blank

[opus37]

The Rudy would be a cannon for you. If you are looking to play a horn that has a rich sound that will satisfy you for a life time and could be played in solo as well as most any group you choose, consider a CC instrument made by Miraphone or Kanstul. The Kanstul Grand CCs will give you the sound you are imagining with a horn that is just fun to play. Both of these horn brands are the professional level that turn heads with their sound.

[Wyvern]

svivian, I would suggest you buy an air ticket to Germany and visit Rudolf-Meinl (or the Frankfurt Music Fair in March) to try one for yourself and reach your own conclusions. You want to make sure before forking out a lot of money for one of these.

Out of interest, what ensembles do you play, or would propose to use such a large tuba?

BTW Wessex Tubas is a Rudolf-Meinl dealer, so would be happy to handle your order if you wanted to go ahead - including play testing before shipping. I mention this you being in India.

[bort]

Point is, if it were awesome and just a matter of money, there would be more of them.

[Wyvern]

Point is, if it were awesome and just a matter of money, there would be more of them.

I am not so sure about that! Many in the past have proclaimed the Conn Jumbo Sousaphone too big to use in most ensembles and my good friend, Andy Loree has proved otherwise. I imagine the presence of the 6/4 Rudy is similar to a Jumbo. If OP is playing in a 50+ piece Concert band (particularly as only tuba), it may be idea to provide bass foundation.

[imperialbari]

What ever an experienced tuba player may get of excellent musical results playing the said RM 6/4: It is not for a newcomer to the tuba.

No matter which species of instrument newcomers never should go for the models demanding maximal control and maximal physical efforts at the same time.

I have advised many players in buying instruments, and I have selected many instruments for other players. I have two terribly bad experiences within recent years. One was about plain fraud. The other was about a musician coming to a new species of instrument and seeking advise on a list, where I am a member. That player wanted maximum sound to match his compositions with electronic sound generators as elements. I happen to own the loudest model of that species, which is based on a revival of quite old design techniques combined with a better understanding of the mathematical aspects of acoustics. So I got involved in the discussion, where I warned this newcomer to the instrument off from that modern model because it is heavy and takes an exceptionally wide spread of the fingers of the right hand. And it is quite costly.

Despite the warning from me and from other listers, this newcomer went to a store in his own country (where there is next to no market for these instruments) and ordered this model. Since I bought my sample that model had become available in an even costlier material, which was what the newcomer ordered.

After the arrival the list was presented photos of this instrument and the world appeared sunny (in these matters at least). After a couple of weeks I got private mails complaining ergonomic problems with this instrument. The exact problems I had warned against.

And because of my knowledge of the market I was urged to get this player access to a return with a full refund.

No way! I didn’t even reply to those mails.

Klaus

[GC]

The RM 6/4 would be a 7/4 for any other manufacturer. Their 5/4 would be anyone else's 6/4. The 6/4 would be limited in practical use because it is so excessive in physical size and size of sound. Unless you have a specific need for a gigantic, dark sound on a regular basis, you'd be better off with a smaller instrument, and a smaller instrument than this could still be huge.

[swillafew]

Buy the next one that comes up for sale; you'll be the only person bidding on it.