The Joy of BAT

[daveinem]

We are in the some rarified air here!

[toobagrowl]

BATs can certainly be played that 'brassy' way though; I need only point to Deck & Pokorny's playing (although you rue players' admiration of them in another topic...). Their timbres run the gamut from subtone bass clarinet woodiness to tin foil french horn brassiness.

That's the mark of incredible players though: having all the colors to play with.

I dunno if I'd call that 'brassy'; I'd just call it 'bity' or 'edgy'. I sort of think of tubas in the same way as French horns with their conical, round sound. Lets say you take a horn player with a Conn 8D and a tuba player with a YamaYork and they both always play round and mellow (with little/no bite in their sound), their sound will be VERY woofy/muddy/lacking in color out in the audience - even fairly up close. But if you have strong players on those instruments who know how to put some 'sizzle' into the sound (bite/edge) and keep the sound full and rich, it sounds GREAT out in the audience - the sound 'livens up' and becomes more complex/colorful.

[MartyNeilan]

Please discuss.

What prompted me to post this was I had just played the first rehearsal of Borodin's Polovtsian Dances. Seated next to a guest bass trombone player with a b-i-g, phat sound (no chainsaw.) I cannot think of a better instrument for such a piece than a true contrabass BAT or BART. The performance was last night, and the big horn was definitely a perfect fit.
The opener was Copland's Fanfare for the Common Man. The BAT worked perfectly on that piece, but it is one of those that could work equally well with a 4/4 or a 6/4 - it all depends on what color you want to paint with. (I can't stand how many tuba players clam the higher F in the opening F-Bb-F of the tuba part, but that is another story. My guess is that they are trying to hear a Do-Sol-Do in their heads instead of a Do-Fa-Do and get thrown off) I didn't play on the other Copland featured, and Herr Beethoven was kind enough to give me the rest of the night off.

I was/am seriously considering a 4/4-ish tuba of some sort to better fit my uses (church orchestra, college/community orchestra, teaching lessons, occasional quintets, random misc gigs.) On paper, a 4/4 just seems a better fit. However, there is something about the SOUND of a big tuba. Like they say in engine building, There's no replacement for displacement.

[itai]

The rotary Neptune should still be considered a BAT even if it does look rather Kaiser like in appearance, as its sound is without doubt that of a American BAT which I would say is distinct from a Kaiser. A BAT has a broad enveloping tone, while a Kaiser is more direct.

I used to own a Neptune for 3 years+ until a recent upgrade (?) IMO to a Nirschl York, and if the York copy is classified as the typical "BAT", then I can say for sure that the Neptune is not even close to that specification.

The Neptune has a unique sound, truly like no other large tuba. It has some of the BAT broadness, and has its aggression. I wouldn't classify it as a "BAT-Kaiser" but I really have no way to describe this tuba's sound.

As mentioned earlier, the BAT has an easier pianissimo than other contrabass tubas. I recall myself playing in my quintet with the Neptune, back then when it was my only tuba, and I remember many "pffff air-only" embarrassing moments, this tuba was so hard to blow at some situations that never happen with my York. Today I can take the York to a quintet gig and sleep the night before peacefully.

The Neptune was my first owned tuba, and the first CC I ever played. My teacher kept telling it was a big mistake to buy it at the first place, not because it is a bad instrument, but because of the air it requires to play. The Nirschl York does not require less air to get the same results, but now I understand how the amount of air, let me correct myself, air flow affects the color you want to get out of your tuba. BAT's are MUCH more friendly (not easy!) to blow and create the tone you want to achieve for the certain need (and this was tested for a long month next to a pt6).

I could "burn" or "brass-up" the tone much more easily on the Neptune, I'm not even talking about the pt6.

[Allen]

I used to own a Neptune for 3 years+...

Itai, that large amount of air that you say the Neptune needed may have been due to using a large mouthpiece.

I find that my Neptune doesn't need more air than other tubas, while creating a huge sound. I use a medium-size mouthpiece (a Stofer Geib). If I use a big mouthpiece such as a G&W Bayamo, the Neptune takes much more air, although in return gives even more sound in the low range.

I love my Neptune, but I do use a smaller instrument when I play in a quintet -- mainly because it is more nimble, and less work to get a lighter sound.

Allen

[Wyvern]

Itai, My guess is you were playing the Neptune with the larger of the two leadpipes supplied. That makes it rather Kaiser like, while the narrow bore pipe is more BAT like in feel/tone.

I have no trouble playing the Neptune quietly and have in the past used successfully with brass quintet.

[Jess Haney]

I love my willson 3100 for many reasons. especially the dark sound it has when you really need it. It is heavy as sin and the metal is thick which does not allow you to bend its sound quite as easily as a BAT of lighter construction. But when you need big sound for prokofiev 5 or night on bald mountain it flies out of the bell and with the right mouthpeice you can give it a little more juice without separating the tone.

[TUbajohn20J]

Yup I love my Willson as well. But my favorite BAT is....Conn 20J

[Jess Haney]

Yup I love my Willson as well. But my favorite BAT is....Conn 20J

I will meet your 20j and raise you a 1939 Conn 36j....that horn is awe inspiring.

[MileMarkerZero]

What I love about my Kali (and Marty can vouch for this) is that even at the very softest dynamic levels, there is a presence to the sound that just blossoms. It's so darned easy to sound good on it! What I love about 6/4s in general is the almost pipe-organ like sound they produce in the mid to mid-low register. The efficiency of the horn makes you work half as hard for twice the product.

[MartyNeilan]

I picked up a nice 2J a couple weeks ago. The horn does everyting it is supposed to do very well, and I enjoy playing it a lot. However, like they say in drag racing, there is no replacement for displacement.
The all-encompassing "presence" of a big horn is something that is unmatched. I will be using the 2J for a lot of church playing, pick-up quintets, and other uses; but when the orchestra does Tannhauser, Scheherazade, and Romeo and Juliet (Tchaik) in the spring, I will definitely be bringing the big horn. I may use the 2J on Brahms 2, although I have committed the sacrilege of using a big horn on Brahms several times in the past, and I may do so again