What Happened To "MADE IN THE USA"?

[TUBAD83]

What keeps a corporation from paying $1.37 an hour? They need skilled workers and the plant down the street is willing to pay $1.45 an hour for them. So, to attract them, they pay $1.55. Then the plant down the street offers $1.65. That proceeds until one can go no further, or the supply of skilled workers increases (as it surely will if prices for them are high enough), so that both plants are adequately staffed.

That would be fine if all companies operated above board and played by rules--and if there was not attempt to manipulate wages by all competitors in a particular field agreeing to a "wage cap" (Brinks Armored Car, for example, and its competitors did this until the government intervened--there are more examples). The history of US corporations is not a particularly pretty one.

I lived in Houston in the 70's (and the 60's, and the 50's--part of them--and my parents still live there). Jerry, I don't remember the corruption of which you speak with regard to law enforcement or racial tensions, though I do remember some of the same high-profile cases where facts were generally overwhelmed by the political reaction. I personally know the folks who were doing traffic engineering in City Hall at the time, and I know the folks doing it now, and the expertise was better in the earlier period, with considerable professionalism and without any patronage politics. (Houston was and still is quite different than many places in the lack of patronage politics, but it's getting worse these days not better). I do remember the corruption in the city's purchasing department in the 70's and before. I would be unwilling to believe that corruption has any racial component.

Rick, I will be more than happy to submit to you at least a couple of dozen examples of Houston's "sorted past"--things I know happened for a fact--via pm. Feel free to ask. And not to be rude at all, but I would remind you of the saying: Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Houston had some major problems back then.

[bigbob]

I'm new and don't know too much.. is the China horns as good???Is the metal as good?? and the action?? Thank You..............bigbob

[Rick Denney]

That would be fine if all companies operated above board and played by rules--and if there was not attempt to manipulate wages by all competitors in a particular field agreeing to a "wage cap" (Brinks Armored Car, for example, and its competitors did this until the government intervened--there are more examples). The history of US corporations is not a particularly pretty one.

The same could be said of union managements who did the same thing on the labor organizing side, and who had politicians in their pocket to run interference for them.

The solution is not more government, but more daylight. At this moment, there is far more daylight in publicly held corporate boardrooms than in big labor (or big politics).

Rick "noting that the halls of government can be pretty dingy places" Denney

[TUBAD83]

In the words of my dearly departed Grandma: "baby, what time is the next show?"

JJ

[bigbob]

Are the china horns any good?? how is the metal and action of the valves?? Thanks from a amiteure.............................bigbob

[tofu]

Back on topic...

i like turtles.

How about this turtle - a real character - he is the oldest living animal AND he is still mating - at 176 plus and thus doesn't have time to post in Tubenet flame wars!


World's oldest living animal discovered after he is pictured in 1900 photograph
As a photograph it looks fairly unremarkable - a tortoise nibbles at the grass in front of a Boer War prisoner and guard.

He was photographed during the Boer War around 1900, and his life has spanned eight British monarchs from George IV to Elizabeth II, and 50 prime ministers. It was taken on the South Atlantic island of St Helena, where Jonathan still lives today, along with five other tortoises David, Speedy, Emma, Fredricka and Myrtle, in a plantation. The previous oldest tortoise was widely thought to be Harriet, a giant Galapagos Land tortoise, who died in 2005 aged 175 in Australia. Despite his old age, locals say he still has the energy to regularly mate with the three younger females. A spokesman for the island's tourist board said Jonathan is owned by the St Helena government and lives in the specially built plantation on the governor's land. He said: "Jonathan is the sole survivor of three tortoises that arrived on St Helena Island in 1882. "He was already mature when he arrived and was at least 50-years-old. "Therefore his minimum age is 176-years-old. He is the oldest inhabitant on St Helena and is claimed to be the oldest living tortoise in the world. "He lives in the grounds of Plantation House which is the governor's residence with five other tortoises who are much younger than him. "Apparently he remained nameless for the most part of his residence in St Helena until he was named by Governor Sir Spencer Davis in the 1930s. "He feeds on the grass of the main paddock. "Jonathan is still very active despite his age and adores attention, he is a real poser. "He seems to be sightless in one eye, but does not let that slow him down." It is thought Jonathan, from the species Testudinipae cytodira, was brought to St Helena from the Seychelles as a mature adult in 1882. His remarkable existance has come to light after the photograph was discovered as part of a collection of Boer War images taken by a man named L.A. Innes who had a studio in the British overseas territory's capital Jamestown.

[Jesse Brook]

I would ask what happened to made in Canada, too. But the answer there is fairly obvious. We had an aircraft industry. It vanished because of one huge project. We had a musical instrument manufacturing industry. It vanished, period. We had car makers. Gone, bought out by the States. We had a lot of things that went, because of comsumer demand for someting from somewhere else.

Tubas from China are cheaper to build, of the same quality (eventually, very eventually), and can be stamped easily with any name.

The same goes for other things. Parts from India come cheap. We're a large continent of managers now, because of shipping and communication improvements.

Ultimately, I think it's because we're consumers that things went to China, Taiwan, Mexico and other places. We demand a lot more, and we shop for the best deals. All of us, from the plant board on down.

[Jesse Brook]

In other responses...Hmmm. Off-topic is popular here.

[opus37]

Although this thread has drifted all over the place, I would like to get back to the original question. There are good quality brass instruments made in the USA. They are made by Kanstul. Their price is in many cases less than the Asian competition. I frankly think they are great horns. Zig Kanstul has a business model that does not over extend himself. He makes to order and he demands payment in 30 days. He owns is plant not the bank.

[jwjeffrey]

I really wonder if the "school band" thing will last much longer in America. Can we talk...?? Large cities in America are becoming more "black". Certainly there are some black schools (high school and university) that REALLY get into wind instrument playing and make it into something quite their own...but in many schools in urban and mostly-black areas are found band rooms where a teacher presides over a handful of mostly-disinterested students.

First of all, cities are getting more "brown" and have you been to many of the "mostly-black" areas around the country, Joe?? What are you basing this on? The black areas I've been to the opposite is true. In fact, the Houston Independent School District (which is mostly black) is expanding its music program in all the schools (I have recently spoken with a couple of new band directors and they are pretty excited about it). Yes Memphis, Detroit, DC are very violent cities, but they are NOT the rule...these are the WORST cities because the city government is corrupt (Houston went through the same thing in the 70s--we had to get rid of the corruption in city hall and in the police department before things turned around). Please let go of the notion that because there is a large number of "blacks" or "browns" in a one area, its all going to hell. That IS "race crap".

One more thing--the idea of just blaming unions, lawyers, OSHA, social security, welfare, the tooth fairy for all the ills of the country is ridiculous. If good ole "Corporate America" had its way, the VAST majority of us would be making $1.37 an hour 90 hours a week and the only vacation we would get is when (not IF)we would be FIRED for having the unmitigated gall of getting SICK.

JJ "A black man who has NOT robbed, raped, jacked, shot, or been arrested...and there are MANY MANY more like ME, Thank You"

Yes, there are,I'm a Black Man who has not robbed,raped,jacked,shot or been arrested.I also vote and have no children by 5 different mother and still respect my parents at the age of 56.Thank You!I also listen to the Beatles.One thing I havn't seen is something on the price of brand news Tubas.That kanstual tuba that's suppose to be like the old York Tuba cost like $10,000.Who has that kind of money to buy a brand new tuba like and in the same breath the Howard Johnson model cost the same amount.

[Donn]

One thing I havn't seen is something on the price of brand news Tubas. That kanstual tuba that's suppose to be like the old York Tuba cost like $10,000. Who has that kind of money to buy a brand new tuba

Yes, that's what it's about. For perspective, back in 1963, the median income of a US family was $6200. Today, median US income is more like $50000. So, who has that kind of money - and who had it back when we used to buy US made tubas?

On the other hand - I wish I could find a price from 1963, but I'm guessing a top of the line US made tuba was well under $1000, so it would have even then been a smaller fraction of household income. What would happen if you could somehow reckon "disposable" income, I have no idea.

[tbn.al]

Yesterday I just happened to see the motel bill from my wedding night in 1968. $12.95 at the priciest hotel in Ft. Smith Arkansas. Yeah, not a resort but all I could afford. Included was a long distance phone call from my new wife to her mother all of 55 miles away costing $5.36. Not everything has gone up at the same rate. I bought a new Olds Recording trombone in 1962 for $200 and a used 1953 Ford sedan 2 years later for $100. My first teaching job in 1969 paid $5500 a year. Using the inflation guide todays figures would be, room $90.48, phone call $37.45, trombone $1486, car $722.50 and salary $38,438. The actual cost today would be about $125 for the room, $1.25 for the call, $1750 for the bone, $2000 for the car, and $38,000 for the salary. The real discrepancies are the phone(electronics) and car(subject to variables). My point is that things cost(real cost) about the same now.

[Kenton]

I'm an old guy and so I may not remember history accurately, but it seems to me that there has always been the potential for abuse, excess, and manipulation by those that that had the power. (read; that includes government, business leaders, union leaders, etc.)

But, what maybe has changed is the willingness of the individual to forge off on their own to do what was possible and take the risk to see if they could succeed at their favorite enterprise.

We seem quick to blame those that that maybe have taken advantage of us, but maybe, just maybe, we have become less willing to take our fate in our own hands and see if we couldn't just make a better life for ourselves.

[Donn]

What you might remember if you think about it, is that we've always looked back to days of old, when knights were bold etc. We've always lost our way, in the swamps of sloth and moral turpitude. Doesn't really explain much, though.

We had it pretty good a couple generations ago, for a variety of historical reasons we were able to live pretty high on the hog. Right now, the global scene is much more competitive, and we have to think about how we're going to deal with it. In the more long term, I think it's going to come down to who's left standing, in environmental terms - will we blow out our aquifers before China poisons its rivers? etc. 50 years from now, countries that still have fertile soil and water, can grow enough food to export, and can avoid getting overrun will be looking pretty good.

[opus37]

Actually, human waste, if properly treated can be used as fertilizer. A common practice is for companies who pump out septic systems to contract with local farmers to spread the product on the farmers fields. When a tree is taken down in your yard it is ground up and the chips are used for landscaping (unless the tree is diseased). Those recycle industries have only been around in the last 20 years. In the old days, recycling was rare. In a lot of ways I agree that our work ethic has changed. The cause is up for debate. I do remember the effect of the great depression on how people saved and treated work and respected family. We are in the midst of a great recession, which has changed some folks attitude about saving and work. Kind of a reality check. I, for one, will always buy American and local, if I can. I will buy from the local store as apposed to the internet seller if the thing I want or need is available. It's what I can do.

[Donn]

Actually, human waste, if properly treated can be used as fertilizer. A common practice is for companies who pump out septic systems to contract with local farmers to spread the product on the farmers fields. When a tree is taken down in your yard it is ground up and the chips are used for landscaping (unless the tree is diseased).

It's easier to recycle yourself these days, too, I'm told. I mean, instead of formaldehyde pickled remains in a lead lined box, you can get yourself planted in something more like a "peat pot", with your choice of tree overhead etc.

I believe the real problem with waste recycling is contaminants, if that isn't too ironic of a term to use with human waste. Heavy metals, persistent pharmaceuticals, etc. Similar problem with other kinds of wastes - a few years back, a then fashionable herbicide (clopyralid) was getting into people's gardens from composted straw and grass clippings, and wiping them out. When derived from municipal sewage treatment plants, the stuff is called biosolids, but, you know, a rose is a rose, and some of the bloom is off this practice.

[bort]

For me, it's not so much about buying from a certain country, as it is NOT buying from some countries when its possible.

[jwjeffrey]

After my tirade about Kanstul being way over price I forgot to mention this Company out of Texas called Tempest Musical Instruments. They have a Tuba 4/4 size for $3295. They have some videos of professional and college teachers demonstrating these instrument.Of course it's youtube so sound quality might be question.But the tubas sound good to me and if I was going to buy a new onw that would be the way to go. Of course I would have to go down there and try one if I couldn't find a place in the midwest that has them.

[Lectron]

Jinbao again, only with a higher markup

[imperialbari]

Is the 4/4 rotary BBb really made by Tempest in the USA? The American company that to my knowledge was most prominent in making rotary tubas was King. And these tubas look more out of the German/Czech tradition than anything near the rotary King tubas:

http://www.tempestmusicalinstruments.co ... gory_id=37

Klaus