Advice on smaller horns?

[bigtubby]

I just acquired an Amati Karslice 4V rotary. No serial or model numbers but it appears to be identical to the Cerveny CBB 481/681 except for the valve paddles and axles. It was advertised as a 3/4 and that is what I was hoping for. Well it isn't lol and now I have three big tubas (ancient Boosey 3V comp, Yamaha 321 and this) :\ While I really like the Amati and thinking about selling the Yamaha in preference for the new one, I think that I want a physically smaller instrument. First my parameters and then my questions:

I'm a beginning player (well returning to tuba 45-ish years after high school band). My goals are to play in small ensembles - blues and American roots stuff with acoustic guitars, etc. and Dixieland. Full size tubas are just too clumsy in these situations. I own a 3/4 top action Amati BBb and that or slightly larger is about the size I'd like to shoot for.

So I've been looking again at the Chinese stuff (I'm not at the playing level to justify an expensive pro horn) but would like input from the folks here.

The two directions in which I am leaning are a 3/4 size BBb or an Eb with extended lower range.

Can anyone illuminate the pros and cons of those in relation to each other? Can anyone make suggestions for specific instruments (preferably under 2K USD)?

Jinbao has a 3/4 tuba that almost looks like a copy of my new Amati but with a shorter bell. 20mm bore and around 32" long. Does anyone have experience with these (model JBBB 220)? They also show a "lightweight" 3/4 but with only 16mm bore.

Another new instrument but in the other direction is the Jinbao 4V compensating Eb. Any thoughts on this one (model JEBB 700 IIRC)?

Are there any American or European instruments to watch for that might suit the purpose and be in my price range used?

[David Richoux]

I have used a Yamaha YCC-621 3/4 (with my local-made BBb extension) for quite a few years - mostly for rehearsals, indoor small Dixie gigs, and some strolling combo work. If I am playing with a string band I can convert the horn back to CC for easier faking. The sound quality is good, but the volume level is not adequate for larger playing situations no matter how hard I blow. That is when I use my Sousaphone or Helicon.

I also have a semi-beater YBB-103 3/4 that I have used for parties, parades and picnic gigs. Even though the bell shape is exactly the same as the YCC-621, it is a bit louder (but it breaks to a honk much more often if I am not careful.)

I am not sure how newer 3/4 tubas compair with the older Yamahas, but I do know mine will not be best for every situation.

[Michael Bush]

For what you want, it seems to me the Yamaha 103 is mighty hard to beat. Nice-ish ones crop up on eBay for well under $1000 several times a year, if yours is a beater.

[Tom Coffey]

If you are not in a time bind, there are good small BBb horns for sale frequently here or the bay, for reasonable prices. A lot of guys have used Olds 99s successfully for the types of playing you described. Old Eb horns can be purchased cheaply, but often are difficult or impossible to play in tune. Four valve Ebs are usually expensive. Sousaphones can be had relatively cheaply in either key, and often play well. I have used a Conn BBb helicon in Dixieland bands and enjoyed it very much. They still are around for sale, and often are reasonably priced.

[David Richoux]

In the past two weeks I have done several gigs using a borrowed Sousaphone - The ceilings were so low at 3 of them, I had to sit down when the rest of the band was standing. This might not be an issue for many of you...

[tbn.al]

I bought an Olds O=99 4vFA 5/8 BBb off ebay for the exact purpose you put forth. I love it. However it was much less than desireable until the bloke fixed it. See this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33942&hilit=ebay+treasure" target="_blank

[bigtubby]

Thanks for all of the responses!

And I know that I'm asking for a lot - a car that will do an eleven second quarter, top speed over 200mph ... and gets 60mpg.

To clarify where I have been:
The Yamaha student model suggestions are quite valid. I have a YBB-102 that has a surprisingly strong and easy low end. But as David points out it gets "barky" very easily. I've recently had a couple of YBB-104's as well and again they played quite well. I am hoping for a richer timbre, more like the 5/4 Boosey, Yamaha or the 4/4 Amati rotary.

Before my recent buying spree my favorite horn was the 1905 York Monster Eb and I still like that but have become spoiled by the lower end afforded by BBb horns. In fact one of the things I've been considering since reading Sir Elephant's "Never Ending Tuba Conversion" thread: Watching for an Eb bugle into which I might install the .670-ish bore action from my Reynolds Eb Sousaphone. With the additional plumbing of course.

Wrap-arounds: I have two in Eb: The Reynolds that I just threatened to cannibalize and a sweet JW Pepper Eb helicon from the 20's or 30's. Sousas are even more cumbersome that the big tubas so they are out. The helicon it big enough to be a problem and its timbre is pretty thin for my tastes.

Above are the reasons that I've been thinking about Chinese large bore compact BBb's and that Besson Eb knock-off.

For what it's worth I think that this is probably the ideal horn. Yeah, I will _never_ have his chops and certainly can't afford whatever that is that he is playing (Six valve F maybe?) but the nice full but with an edge timbre from way down there to way up there ... the Amati I just got has this sort of voice but maybe not the range (that might just be me )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNU60Ojrmy0" target="_blank" target="_blank

Another clip with that horn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOPo5OotLvA" target="_blank" target="_blank

I think that is why I'm looking at these European designs. If I'm way off base here please enlighten me.

Thanks again!

[bigtubby]

I bought an Olds O=99 4vFA 5/8 BBb off ebay for the exact purpose you put forth. I love it. However it was much less than desireable until the bloke fixed it. See this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33942&hilit=ebay+treasure" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks for a great lead and link to advice. I've been watching ebay and Craig's list pretty carefully for a few months and don't remember seeing one of those. But I'm looking now!

[Donn]

I am hoping for a richer timbre, more like the 5/4 Boosey, Yamaha or the 4/4 Amati rotary.

Ever think about just using one of those?

In the style of music you're talking about, you're the bass player, and that desire to hear a big tuba is right on target. I'm not saying no one ever made a little tuba work in such a situation, but the classic choice is something like a Conn 34J or the equivalent Martin. Your new Amati is a compact alternative. Think about dragging around a string bass, will make you feel better about it.

Not that a person shouldn't acquire more tubas, even though already having a room full of them. (Don't break up the Reynolds Eb sousaphone, by the way.) But I'm assuming that Chinese instruments are purchased out of some kind of perceived necessity, not for the joy of having a menagerie of cool tuba artifacts.

[bigtubby]

I am hoping for a richer timbre, more like the 5/4 Boosey, Yamaha or the 4/4 Amati rotary.

Ever think about just using one of those?

In the style of music you're talking about, you're the bass player, and that desire to hear a big tuba is right on target. I'm not saying no one ever made a little tuba work in such a situation, but the classic choice is something like a Conn 34J or the equivalent Martin. Your new Amati is a compact alternative. Think about dragging around a string bass, will make you feel better about it.

Not that a person shouldn't acquire more tubas, even though already having a room full of them. (Don't break up the Reynolds Eb sousaphone, by the way.) But I'm assuming that Chinese instruments are purchased out of some kind of perceived necessity, not for the joy of having a menagerie of cool tuba artifacts.

Thanks for the reality check Donn. Yes I have thought about using one of those which is what brought these questions. The Boosey is probably off limits for jamming/gig use simply because I don't want to have it trashed in a bar. The new Amati is in "nearly new" condition and I guess that is a factor in my mind ... feel free to ask "So why did you buy it, to just look at it?"

Maybe I should have the pistons replated in my little Amati and see if that brings out the already pretty nice timbre ... or just use the big one as you suggest.

Thanks for the input!

[bigtubby]

Has anyone here had any experience with one of these?
http://www.cerveny.biz/tuben/bbb_tuben/abb_483_4m.php" target="_blank" target="_blank

It appears to be exactly what I am looking for: the same bore (probably same valveset?) as the Amati tuba that I like so much ... but only 34" long. Almost looks like a BBb Piggy. Thinking that if I put all of the student model 3/4 size horns that I've been testing on ebay I could probably afford something like that.

I'd be very interested in hearing from someone who has played one of these.

[opus37]

When you are looking for older horns, I would suggest you contact Joe Sellsmanberg or Lee Stofer. These guys always seem to have a horn in progress. They also test the horns and can give you a fair evaluation. Lee regularly plays the horns he sells in gigs to be sure they are right and to be able to talk about the horn. I think with horns off the bay or sight unseen, you are taking a risk that you'll get something that just isn't right (I have a friend who has that problem right now). If you get one of those you are going to have to talk to Joe or Lee or someone like them to make it right anyway.

[bearphonium]

bigtubby, Check your PM's. I have a horn you might be interested in.
Ally

[bigtubby]

After playing a bunch of student model 3/4 size tubas I started thinking about other directions. In this thread I've mentioned an interest in the Jinbao Hirsbrunner copy and the Cerveny *83 series ... these are still attractive options but I took a flyer on an old Schuster & Co. 4V tuba and it looks very promising.

While I was looking for a "smaller" horn this thing is downright petite: 32.5" overall length and a little under 14 pounds. For such a small tuba it has a huge, full voice especially in the low range. Some of the student models I have tried produced surprising volume in the first octave and high pedal but it was always pretty thin, not many overtones. This Schuster has a 18.5mm bore as opposed to the 16-ish of the student models.

Looking forward to tightening up the slightly sloppy linkages but so far I like it a lot. There are two major problems: verl long and somewhat heavy throw on the paddles (comparing to the Cerveny and Amati *81 series that I own) and the 4th valve is that old 2+3 length.

The first is the more difficult. Since I wouldn't want to trash the existing (cool old clock spring) mechanisms, I could build a taller system to give more length to the driving bellcranks - a lot of work because it would entail new pivots, paddles, stanchions and linkages. So for now I'm going to see if I can just get used to that.

The second is pretty easy and I have tubing on order to simply build a longer 4th valve tuning slide.

[Heavy_Metal]

This Schuster?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54482" target="_blank

[bigtubby]

This Schuster?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54482" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Sure looks like that one - except mine doesn't have as many dents. And soon won't have the ugly bad soldering bits.

Yes, that is the one. It seems to be a great little horn. I'm going to try to preserve the patina while bringing functionality up to snuff.

[Heavy_Metal]

Good- no better home & rehab opportunity for a nice old tuba than with a TubeNetter.

I almost bid on it, but already have one project going, and Markneukirchen is well represented here with my Sonora.

Looking forward to hearing how it turns out.

[bigtubby]

Good- no better home & rehab opportunity for a nice old tuba than with a TubeNetter.

I almost bid on it, but already have one project going, and Markneukirchen is well represented here with my Sonora.

Looking forward to hearing how it turns out.

Yesterday knocked the major dents out of it and opened the 4th valve circuit's flattened tube. Today attacked the sloppy transmission. Tightened up bearing points, aligned everything and relaxed spring tension (which had been cranked presumably to make misaligned stuff function).

Second valve linkage had been damaged. Valve end broken off and then soldered back on but not very well aligned. The driving bellcrank on the spring housing was also broken free and someone had gobbed soft solder around it in an attempt to solidify it. Today I cleaned it up and silver soldered it back together. Works pretty well now but #1 and #2 still noisy. Next step: tighten up the bearings on #1 and #2 valves.



(Just noticed that #2 paddle is marked as #3 ... will check those out tomorrow)

[Heavy_Metal]

Great- keep 'em coming!

[bigtubby]

Great- keep 'em coming!

Today removed about three pounds of excess solder from a previous strap ring "repair" and made a new 4th valve slide so that it now plays the modern way. Now I guess I have to wait a hundred years for the patina on the new bits and repair to catch up


Testing mouthpieces and getting used to it, I have to say that I am really happy that I held out for this and that it came along. So far it seems to be exactly what I was looking for in a small tuba.