High Register Advice?

[patricklugo]

i am not an expert in high register playing yet. but the last 4 years i have been trying to improve as player with the aid of a professional player.

my top range 4 years ago was e flat on the staff. right now i could play up to high e natural above the staff and my comfortable range is around high c.

it is taken along time to figure out how to play up there. but consistent practice in that range with the guidance of teacher is the best road to success.

[thattubachick]

The F above the staff should get you by just fine as a music teacher.

I hate to stick my nose where it doesn't belong - but whatever happened to the pursuit of excellence and improvement for its own sake? I personally would like to see more aspiring educators trying to push themselves to the limits of their abilities rather than settling for 'what is enough for the job'.

[cavalierbari]

The F above the staff should get you by just fine as a music teacher.

I hate to stick my nose where it doesn't belong - but whatever happened to the pursuit of excellence and improvement for its own sake? I personally would like to see more aspiring educators trying to push themselves to the limits of their abilities rather than settling for 'what is enough for the job'.

Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth. The 'it's enough for the job approach' is what I believe to be the leading cause for mediocrity in music education. Your education as a musician doesn't end when you graduate school, and neither should your tuba playing.

As far as improving high range... Work on low range with the key being moving lots of air. When you start to get in the upper register, the cavity (open space in your mouth) should get smaller the higher you go by raising your tongue. I tend to think more of an HEEEE feel in my mouth. This channels the same amount of air volume through a smaller channel but in a much faster velocity, which will inherently lead to a higher register. The only difference between speed and velocity is that velocity has direction. In the case of all brass, hell all wind instruments, it's about putting it in the right place.

[PMeuph]

The F above the staff should get you by just fine as a music teacher.

I hate to stick my nose where it doesn't belong - but whatever happened to the pursuit of excellence and improvement for its own sake? I personally would like to see more aspiring educators trying to push themselves to the limits of their abilities rather than settling for 'what is enough for the job'.

Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth. The 'it's enough for the job approach' is what I believe to be the leading cause for mediocrity in music education. Your education as a musician doesn't end when you graduate school, and neither should your tuba playing.

As far as improving high range... Work on low range with the key being moving lots of air. When you start to get in the upper register, the cavity (open space in your mouth) should get smaller the higher you go by raising your tongue. I tend to think more of an HEEEE feel in my mouth. This channels the same amount of air volume through a smaller channel but in a much faster velocity, which will inherently lead to a higher register. The only difference between speed and velocity is that velocity has direction. In the case of all brass, hell all wind instruments, it's about putting it in the right place.

I ABSOLUTELY hate the idea of teaching "HEEEE" for high range for any brass instrument, and, certainly on low brass. I tend to think "AH" or "O." Closing up the oral cavity can lead to restricted airways and a general "thinning out" of the sound..While it might work for you, I think it can have terrible effects on progress. I think of Opera singers and how in their high range (especially good tenors), the sound doesn't thin out or fade, it stays strong and full. I've often had brass students sing scales on the vowel "MA" throughout their entire vocal range. That seems to help them with the concept and has yielded good results.

...YMMV


_____
As to the other point regarding music educators. While I agree that educators shouldn't just settle for what is "good enough" for the job. I wonder how important it is for an educator to have good high range on the tuba. I feel that the time spent developing these skills might be better spent learning other vital skills that educators sometimes lack.

Having played under several directors, I know that many have few/or little skills related to hearing pitches. Quite a few do not distinguish the proper octaves of the tubas and basses. plenty do not address issues of tuning. I've played under many directors and only 3 have actually tried to address issues of ensemble, balance, dynamics, blend in a clinical way. Most mention it but that's really not the same thing as actually addressing it.

Many band directors are ineffective at picking repertoire that plays to the strengths of the band. I would think that it is because they might not know that much, or because they are unaware of many of the idiomatic capabilities of the various instruments. It seems foolish to me to play grade 5 level pieces that require the flutes to work their asses off but have tuba parts that are about a grade 1. (Both composers and educators are guilty here at times, imho) Personally, the worst is playing a euphonium part that is many a grade 2 level while the band has a done of interesting music.

Last, and certainly not the least, band directors are often unaware of the state of repairs of instruments and how to address proper maintenance. I'm not saying they should all be techs, but if an instruments slides and rotors haven't been oiled in several years, than someone is certainly to blame. In this era of declining budgets, it would be foolish to imagine a 12 yr old learning to address all the issues on his instrument that his/her teacher doesn't even think are issues. If the money isn't there for a tech to be called in, the teacher certainly needs to step up and fill the role.

Lastly, I feel that since most North-American schools bands are not brass bands, a teacher needs to be better equipped with dealing with all different families of instruments. It is probably more practical, for the OP to be able to teach about going over the break on a clarinet than it is for him to learn high range. If he wants to improve, than he certainly should, but not at the cost of letting his true focus (being a well-rounded educator) suffer.

[cavalierbari]

Apples and Oranges regarding vocal and brass tone production. Ah and O have their merit with voice production throughout a singer's entire range, but it's not as even of a transfer (regarding high register playing) as I think you are making it sound. There should not be any tension at the back of or behind the tongue, ever. Imagine putting your thumb over a garden hose, its' the same deal, only slightly more complicated with playing an instrument. You may have regarded the HEEEE comment as creating tension in the back of the oral cavity and throat, which would certainly cause a lot of problems. What I'm referring to is how the airstream is channeled as it exits (not enters) the oral cavity; think more forward in the oral cavity with (H)EEEE only in the context of high register playing. Also, the syllable formation of the mouth has a fluid change with respect to the range of a brass player, with its application on some instruments more exaggerated than others. With tuba there is OHH in the low register (the most open), AH in the mid (a smaller vowel shape than OH), and then to EEE as you transition up high.

It's not a secret that for a trumpet player to play high, that they are making their oral cavity smaller to produce a faster air velocity, or how Clarinet embouchures are in a constant "IHH" formation with the tongue to channel their air to achieve the same thing. Playing high on the tuba is no different, just scaled down a bit. If the sound thins out then you're doing something wrong. I could sit here and tell you that I'm peeling paint off the wall on the 3rd C above the bass clef staff on trombone, but it's just easier to relate to brass playing in how it is all the same regardless of the instrument.

That's why it's important to know how to play high on tuba.


A couple other things:

Technical facility is easier managed on flute and higher winds. It's generally not the function of bass voices to play an Arban study in symphonic works.

There is no such thing as a break on a clarinet. I know what you're thinking, and no, there's not.

Why is a 12-year-old (or younger student) not capable of learning how to care for their instrument? I come from a middle school band program of over 700 (I'm from Texas), and students were taught how to properly lubricate, bathe, and care for their horns starting in 6th grade. It's not a budget concern, it's about being a proactive and educated educator. Teaching personal acceptability and self-reliance are only some of the hidden agendas taught in music education. It also makes your job easier. Who has time to lubricate every student's horn? I'd rather be at home with my family and/or drinking beer.

To the OP: Your education as an educator, musician, hell, as a person should never stop. Don't limit yourself to just being well-rounded. Strive to be awesome at everything. There is no reason not to. As an educator and tuba player, how are you going to teach your future budding virtuoso tuba students to play that high Ab in the Vaughan Williams? By being awesome, of course.

By the way... While I agree that vocal audiation is key in developing musicianship, diction exercises involving lip articulation will only have a negative transfer to brass playing.

[PMeuph]

A couple other things:

Technical facility is easier managed on flute and higher winds. It's generally not the function of bass voices to play an Arban study in symphonic works.

.....

Why is a 12-year-old (or younger student) not capable of learning how to care for their instrument? I come from a middle school band program of over 700 (I'm from Texas), and students were taught how to properly lubricate, bathe, and care for their horns starting in 6th grade. It's not a budget concern, it's about being a proactive and educated educator. Teaching personal acceptability and self-reliance are only some of the hidden agendas taught in music education. It also makes your job easier. Who has time to lubricate every student's horn? I'd rather be at home with my family and/or drinking beer.

Your missing forests for trees.

Repertoire selection is a skill that comes from knowing lots of it and knowing your ensemble well enough. It takes experience, curiosity, enthusiasm to want to discover. Euphoniums could double trumpet parts with no difficulty, imho.(At the octave, obviously) (Actually, some Philip Sparke pieces have euphoniums playing in octaves with clarinets on a whole bunch of licks)

You probably misread me. I never said the Band director had to spend their weekends cleaning horns. (re-read my point) I said that a student won't know about it, or how to do it properly if no-one tells them how to. Teachers having to "step up" can be interpreted in different ways, but my meaning was that they should teach their students about it and oversee proper maintenance. (Your experience, in a band of 700 students is probably biased as there were probably many different teachers, each with their own skill set) (My high school band director was a pianist and some instruments in our class were definitely in terrible shape)

My point, since it wasn't clear enough, is that an educator is more than a practice room jock. Heck, for all intensive purposes a good band director could be an average musician(on their instrument) or not play a band instrument at all. The ability to develop a conception of the sound of an ensemble, to play to the strengths, to organize effective activities, to bring in important clinicians, to make sure logistics are top notch does not relate to the ability to play a high Ab on the tuba. Having a solid "ear" for an ensemble is much more important than playing screaming high notes. I'm glossing over quickly, I'm sure people could list tons of other needed skills that are needed if that were the point of this thread.

______
You're right that it's apples and oranges with Singers and Brass players. In the one case, the vibrating membrane is in the throat, in the other it's the lips. The vocal cavity serves two different roles.... I never said it was one and the same, though. I like to use it as an example as it gives students something to work towards that is not their instrument. It gives them an outside motivator and influence. Usually, when their is an issue with anything in someones playing, the solution that is right in front of their eyes(or ears) might not makes sense right away, other entry ways are need to reach that goal. (Or so I think) You're also right that "Ma" doesn't translate into brass playing. "DA" and "HA" work better for those purposes. I just find that MA produces the clearest sound possible.

[J.c. Sherman]

1) The tongue placement method works for many, I suppose. It does not work for me. I want my tuba tone to be a dark vowel, so I make that vowel shape through my entire range. YMMV.

2) As for educators and repairs, I've given many college clinics about repairs and maintenance of brasses, because frankly most educators know nothing of it. They especially don't know when they should NOT try to fix something, but should also have a grasp of keeping things in good working order, good temporary fixes versus expensive things to undo, etc. (*duct tape is evil!*). It's critical to keeping your repair budget effective, and instructing kids effectively on the care of their personal instruments keeps them better engaged with a more positive attitude.

As for Band music scoring, I'm not sure the directors are always to blame; look at piano music, for instance. Are the left had parts always as complex as right hand parts? No. Sometimes, yes. Are all melodies scored in octaves? Nope. Is it always effective to orchestrate that way? No. Composers and orchestrators may have biases, and those are things which your pocket book can decide at time of purchase. But my part in Pines of Rome isn't as interesting as the 1st violin's part, and I don't blame the conductor for that. The music is effective.

Lastly, I know many excellent, superlative musicians who also are professional school music educators. I'm always bewildered at the assumption of weakness or relaxation of standards for educators vs. performers. The best educators I've known are phenomenal musicians, usually at a specific instrument. Learning to strive for perfection for themselves allows an attitude of drive and energy and excitement to be communicated to their students. There are mediocre ones with strong programs, but their students come to me with the same attitude toward their instrument as their teachers. It's infectious.

To the OP - strive to be a polymath! You can and should be good at both. Be a great musician who always strives for the best product in everything you do... that attitude more than anything will instruct your students!

J.c.S.

[Jay Bertolet]

1) The tongue placement method works for many, I suppose. It does not work for me. I want my tuba tone to be a dark vowel, so I make that vowel shape through my entire range. YMMV.

+1

In my neck of the woods, teaching specific vowel selection based on range is something from the distant past. Arban included this technique in his method published in 1864. We've come a very long way since then. Consistent vowel usage in all ranges leads to consistent sound range to range, something that is very highly regarded in playing these days. It also tends to even out the intonation across all ranges, depending on the player. Besides, manipulation of the airstream with tongue placement is unnecessary if you're managing your embouchure aperture properly.

[jsmn4vu]

... manipulation of the airstream with tongue placement is unnecessary if you're managing your embouchure aperture properly.

Gets my vote.

[MaryAnn]

It's all right here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4051&p=29149#p29184

+1

+ 2. High range is easy and does not require immense extra strength; it is about lip position. If you choose to curl in your upper lip, you'll be blowing up; if you choose to curl in your lower lip, you'll be blowing down; if you choose to curl in both lips equally, you'll be blowing straight ahead. There is a whole development system out there called The Balanced Embouchure. And yes, you will need faster air but faster air is not going to get you pitch, just amplitude.

You can get this almost instantly once you understand the concept.

MA

[euphoni]

... manipulation of the airstream with tongue placement is unnecessary if you're managing your embouchure aperture properly.

Gets my vote.

I don't agree with this. Not adjusting your oral cavity to the range you are playing in is like trying to jam a 4 inch block in a 2 inch hole. As we play from low to high we create a smaller aperture and use less surface area, therefore we need to create the conditions necessary to accommodate this natural change. Think of the wind between two sets of buildings, for example; if you have two buildings close together it creates a wind tunnel where high volumes of air move through a smaller opening at a higher velocity, which you can feel. But if you have buildings more spread apart you don't get that wind tunnel feel... you can get the same volume of air but at a totally different velocity because of the spacing of the buildings. The spacing of the buildings is your oral cavity. I hope that example makes clear the importance of creating the right conditions of the oral cavity to help move the air at a correct velocity for high note production.


(Edit: Oops, sorry for the original typos)

[jsmn4vu]

... manipulation of the airstream with tongue placement is unnecessary if you're managing your embouchure aperture properly.

Gets my vote.

I don't agree with this. Not adjusting your oral cavity to the range you are playing in is like trying to jam a 4 inch block in a 2 inch hole.

Adjusting the size/shape of the oral cavity to accommodate range or desired timbre is not the same as manipulating the airstream with tongue placement.

[Jay Bertolet]

It just goes to show that there are plenty of ways to skin the proverbial cat. Will, if you've found an effective method for you, that's great. To me, the method I've outlined makes sense, and it works for me and my students. Changing the oral cavity will change the quality of your sound. I haven't found any way to avoid that. Therefore, if you're changing your oral cavity as you change ranges, you're also changing the quality of your sound. This is a bad thing in today's world of spotless, consistent audition playing. That's why I teach the technique I describe.

I understand your point and actually, I think we are achieving similar results through different means. By controlling the embouchure aperture, you are producing the very same effect that you described in your building analogy. By making that aperture smaller, you are increasing the airspeed. Of course, the trick is to do so without using too much physicality that might make your embouchure less responsive. Also, by not changing the oral cavity, you are (hopefully!) keeping your sound consistent throughout the ranges of the instrument.

We probably should have discussed this point in the embouchure mechanics thread we had going a while back. It certainly is relevant to that discussion. In any event, the important thing is to find a method that makes sense and works for you.

[Stefan]

This idea that he doesn't need to be working too hard on his high register or doesn't need to be able to play above an F because he is an education major is hogwash. I have been a band teacher for 18 years now and I still practice my tuba regularly. In fact, I have specifically been focussing on the high range lately so I can play some of the more current solos. As a student my private instructor taught me as if I were a performance major (as I wanted) and I practiced like I was one. I think it is commendable that the OP wants to improve his tuba playing. Very few colleagues of mine take their primary instrument very seriously. Most of my fellow education majors back in the day did the bare minimum to get by. I do believe that my focus on my own personal musicianship has made me a better teacher and I think my students are influenced positively because they know I still take tuba playing seriously.

Stefan

[Mojo workin']

The only things that matter are sex, drugs and rock n' roll.

Oh, and all ya' need is love.

[euphoni]

... manipulation of the airstream with tongue placement is unnecessary if you're managing your embouchure aperture properly.

I don't agree with this. Not adjusting your oral cavity to the range you are playing in is like trying to jam a 4 inch block in a 2 inch hole.

Adjusting the size/shape of the oral cavity to accommodate range or desired timbre is not the same as manipulating the airstream with tongue placement.

Yes it is, exact same thing. I've read your comment about twenty times now and I am still having trouble understanding how you could find a difference and see no correlation between these two particular ideas.

[euphoni]

It just goes to show that there are plenty of ways to skin the proverbial cat. Will, if you've found an effective method for you, that's great. To me, the method I've outlined makes sense, and it works for me and my students. Changing the oral cavity will change the quality of your sound. I haven't found any way to avoid that. Therefore, if you're changing your oral cavity as you change ranges, you're also changing the quality of your sound. This is a bad thing in today's world of spotless, consistent audition playing. That's why I teach the technique I describe.

I understand your point and actually, I think we are achieving similar results through different means. By controlling the embouchure aperture, you are producing the very same effect that you described in your building analogy. By making that aperture smaller, you are increasing the airspeed. Of course, the trick is to do so without using too much physicality that might make your embouchure less responsive.Also, by not changing the oral cavity, you are (hopefully!) keeping your sound consistent throughout the ranges of the instrument.

We probably should have discussed this point in the embouchure mechanics thread we had going a while back. It certainly is relevant to that discussion. In any event, the important thing is to find a method that makes sense and works for you.

Hey Jay,

Regarding Sound quality between registers:

Not to open a pandoras box on sound, but there are many factors that influence sound; Sound quality is sculpted with the oral cavity/jaw/throat, embouchure/aperture and air stream. The oral cavity is ALWAYS changing throughout our registers (ex. play a low Bb then play a high Bb). If you have the exact same oral cavity in every range you just will not be as efficient and productive with your air, sound, range and energy as possible. Ideally, to keep sound quality consistent, we have to be able to have the control enough to maintain the integrity of all of the particular factors and shapes that influence your desired sound throughout the registers, including all of the ever-changing mouth positions.

With that said, I do not believe changing mouth positions detracts from our quality of sound but does quite the opposite, makes our sound more efficient and productive.

[Jay Bertolet]

Will,

It is exactly the myriad factors that effect our sound that is the focus of my logic in embouchure mechanics. With so many variables playing a role, and knowing that changing any of them will change our sound to some degree, it becomes really important to minimize the changes as much as one can if one wants to produce the most consistent product on the horn.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I appreciate the opportunity to learn new perspectives. Great discussion!

[Doug Elliott]

Concepts vs. reality, i.e. what you think you're doing and what you're actually doing, are often very different.

[jsmn4vu]

Adjusting the size/shape of the oral cavity to accommodate range or desired timbre is not the same as manipulating the airstream with tongue placement.

Yes it is, exact same thing. I've read your comment about twenty times now and I am still having trouble understanding how you could find a difference and see no correlation between these two particular ideas.

My comment was excessively brief, a habitual thing, I'm afraid.

Try this, then: even when the mechanics are the same (as they might or might not be), the motivation is what's different.