elongated ferrules on 2341 King tubas

[Uncle Markie]

I have one of the first run of the "new" one-piece upright bell King 2341 models. At least I believe it is from the age of the horn. There is a big difference between the tuning of the bugle and valved notes; tune it to "A" and the bugle is sharp, tune the bugle and the valved notes are flat. At some point I believe King solved this problem by lengthening the bugle with longer ferrules.

Do any of you know when this was done? And maybe what serial number would indicate the change and if the longer ferrules could be soldered in?

Open to suggestions here.

With all the sousaphone and tubas Conn-Selmer sells you'd think they would monitor this forum...

Mark Heter

[TheHatTuba]

Tune the bugle and the valved notes are flat.

Even with the valve slides pushed in? I owned a very early 52J, and oddly, everything was pretty sharp without all of the slides out quite a bit.

[EdFirth]

Mark , Mine has the longer ferrules. I think it was the first run with them It was built sometime between 9/11 and Christmas of 2001. The ferrules are placed first right after the dog's leg then on the place where the next ferrule is.My horn is Very in tune. I have an extra set that you are welcome to if you wish. Matt @ Dillon'scould do it for you, I think they were his fix.All the Best, Ed

[Uncle Markie]

Thanks Ed!

I'll measure mine just to make sure and give you a call.

Mark

[TMurphy]

I had an early example of the "new-style" King 2341, which was purchased new in summer 2001. The main bugle was indeed a bit too short, so Matt Walters at Dillon's built a longer main tuning slide for me, to bring the horn down to pitch. With the new slide, the horn played very well in tune, so perhaps something like that could be your solution.

[EdFirth]

If yours was laquered with quite a few small dents and Dillon's sold it for you, then I probably bought it for my son.The slide lengthening thing works OK but it was quite far out when all the way in. Matt (he designed these horns) sent me the longer ferrules but my son wised up and switched to guitar and piano before I had a chance to put them on. The horn still lives here in Central Florida.Ed

[Dan Schultz]

That 'long-short' main tuning slide has been on and off for as long as King has been making the 1240/41 and 2340/41 tubas. At one time, I thought it had something to do with whether the horns was shipped with an upright or recording bell. King even went so far as to stamp the last few numbers of the serial number into one of the ferrules.

I just took the long ferrules off a slide for one of my own horns. I sold the slide that was on it and 'fished' another one out of my junk box. A previous poster is correct about the inner tubes going all the way through the ferrule. Sometimes it's a pain in the butt to drive the old tube out of the ferrule. An alternative would be to remove the tube and ferrule from the slide and cut the ferrule down in a lathe... then bore the inner tube out about 3/8" to refit the crook.

I've never seen a real use for the longer ferrules EXCEPT in cases where a 19" upright bell was installed on the Kings. That smaller bell tends to play on the sharp side. At one time, King shipped either a 19" or a 22" upright bell with the horns. The may have matched the tuning slides at final assemble and stamp the serial number into them.

[EdFirth]

I have both the longer and shorter main slides for my detachable King.When it's Really hot I'm in Florida) I sometimes use the longer one. But I've seen the 2 and 3B trombones some with the long ferruled tuning slide and some with the shorter one. Could it be a climate thing? If you buy one up north they come with the shorter one and visa versa in the south. With the other available for aftermarket purchase if you need it? Ed

[TMurphy]

If yours was laquered with quite a few small dents and Dillon's sold it for you, then I probably bought it for my son.The slide lengthening thing works OK but it was quite far out when all the way in. Matt (he designed these horns) sent me the longer ferrules but my son wised up and switched to guitar and piano before I had a chance to put them on. The horn still lives here in Central Florida.Ed

Mine was lacquered (the remade tuning slide was raw brass),and it had a few dents, but not what I'd call "quite a few". It could very well be my old horn, though. It was a good horn, and if I'd been able to afford two tubas, I likely would have kept it when I bought my Eb.

[Matt Walters]

Mark,
Rob Phillips is the person who was working at King and redesigned the King 2341 into the shorter horn it is today. Rob has a big sound and plays a bit on the flatter side. What you have works great for him. So after the horn was in production and going to schools (Where amateurs tend to play sharp.), he started getting feedback that the horn was playing too sharp. He didn't want to go through the expense of making a new branch mandrel so I asked him if he could add length in the ferrules. He said that would be a simple program change on the CNC lathe and there you have it.
Your can order the ferrules and retro fit that to your horn for about as easy as rebuilding the main tuning slide longer.

[Uncle Markie]

Hi Matt -

The ferrules are on the way; I'll be up to see you with the horn shortly thereafter.

Have your cutters handy - I might still want to cut that second valve slide!

Mark Heter

[GC]

I hope I'm not misunderstanding this, but from the original description of the problem, I think you're missing the point. I owned one of the first run 2341's from 2002-2005 and had the same problem. Tune the bugle, and the valved notes are flat, even with the slides all the way in.

That's a pretty obvious indicator that the valve slides are not the proper length. If you tune to an A and all the notes on the bugle are sharp, the 2nd valve slide is too long. That was the problem with my horn; the bugle was very well in tune with itself. The first valve would drop the pitch about an eighth tone more than a whole step, and the second valve would drop the pitch almost a quarter tone more than a half step. The third valve was short enough to need a tiny slide pull, and the fourth the same. This made 1+3 and 1+2+3 combinations close to in tune, but all other combinations had to be lipped up. Fighting this horn made playing it an exercise in intonation frustration.

Try this: push the valve slides all the way in. Tune the bugle to a correct Bb. Play the Bb and push the 2nd valve without making any change in air or embouchure. If the pitch is flat on the A, that indicates the slide is probably too long. Same for the first valve and Ab. If the valve tubing is too long, adding length to the ferrules is going to worsen your problem, not fix it.

The horn had a good sound and easy low range. I could have had the slides shortened, but issues with the sandpaper-like satin finish, an oversized receiver, and a few other irritations finally made me decide to sell it.

[Uncle Markie]

Thanks everyone for your contributions.

There are two problems with this particular instrument (serves me right for buying the first model year):

The valved combinations are flat; I've already cut the third slide, which helped - the second valve slide, (which will involve some disassembly to cut) is too long and those notes are flat. Most Kings have a first valve tubing that is too long, too. The A natural below the staff is particularly weird.

The problem with the main tuning slide is that above 72 degrees F the slide is nearly out of the horn to get the bugle in tune with anyone else in the first place.

I'm an experienced player - I don't play sharp with a smiley embouchure like some badly instructed kid.

The object is to get overall horn to pitch - with the tuner and with itself.

I'm betting the ferrules get the bugle to the proper length and cutting the valve tubing to length will make this a nicer horn. As it is the King sings nicely in the upper register and honks out the low notes with authority. It has the best valves of any King I've owned (and that includes a few horns). You can always pull a slide out - but once it's all the way in...

Mark Heter