A series of questions regarding my project horn

[Tubajug]

Greetings!

I have a few questions about my project horn that I thought would be more likely to get answered in a new thread.

Leaks make an instrument play flat correct? Because when I played on this horn a little before taking it apart it had several leaks and it read on my tuner as an E, not Eb. This leads me to believe that it was/is a high-pitch instrument.

So, about how much tubing is generally added to bring these older horns down to modern pitch centers? Since I'm replacing the leadpipe I thought about getting one that's a bit longer (the one on it measured about 9" long) to help add some length.

Finally, does anyone have a leadpipe that might fit this before I worry about bending one out of straight tubing? Here are the approximate dimensions (I haven't cleaned off all the old solder yet, so these are going to be perfect)

Outer Diameter into receiver: 0.540"
Inner Diameter into receiver: 0.490"

Outer Diameter into tuning loop: 0.640"
Inner Diameter into tuning loop: 0.595"

The computer I'm using can't use photobucket, so you'll have to refer to my thread My "New" Toy for a photo to give you the shape of the pipe.

If it comes to bending one, I'll have more questions about using lead later (my brother casts his own bullets, so I have access to lead), but that's for another day.

Thanks as always for answering any or all of these!

[imperialbari]

Doing reverse engineering calculations whemn restoring older instruments is tough anyway. Of course experience from lots of projects is helpful, but very few have that experience.

Doing calculations on assumptions based on an instrument in less than optimal playing shape would equal guesswork.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

You really need to make sure a few things are 'right' before you start cutting or adding tubing to your horn. First... make sure the valves aren't leaking and the waterkeys are in place. Next... check the clearances in your slides. I've seen slides so loose that they collectively added up to a massive leak. Check your valve alignment. Mouthpiece selection can also have an impact on intonation. Put the horn back together making sure the connections are all secure. THEN.... you can start 'fiddling' with modifying the pitch.

If the horn plays flat.... you obviously have to remove some tubing.

If the horn plays sharp.... you obviously have to add some tubing.

You can approximate how much to cut or add by experimenting with what you have. If the horn is sharp... see how much difference (cents) is made by pulling the entire length of the tuning slide. If pulling all the way out only takes you half-way to where you want to be... you know to add tubing perhaps double the length of the 'legs' on your current slide. If it REALLY off... you can add addition pieces of garden hose or other flexible tubing.

If the horn is flat... and pulling out takes you down to the next step... you can figure that you need to cut about as much as you pulled out.

There aren't any exact rules here. It's called 'prototyping'. However... you need to keep in mind that you may want to put it back original and start over again. Always leave yourself a 'way out'. That's just a good engineering principle to abide by.

[imperialbari]

Yes, but none of us can tell the length to be added or cut. Especially if the pitch in the first place was uncertain.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

Yes, but none of us can tell the length to be added or cut. Especially if the pitch in the first place was uncertain.

Klaus

[Tubajug]

Thanks for the ideas so far everyone. I was mostly wondering if there was a "standard" for high pitch instruments, in terms of how high, giving me a better idea of how far to bring it down. I will certainly be experimenting once I get it all put back together.

I don't have to worry about the slides being loose at this point, they're all still frozen solid. I've been putting penetrating oil on them each day for about a week, and heating them from time to time, and gently tapping every now and again, but so far they're all still super stuck.

[Tubajug]

When you buy a pipe filled with pitch, do they still need to be annealed, or can they be bent "out of the box?"

[Dan Schultz]

When you buy a pipe filled with pitch, do they still need to be annealed, or can they be bent "out of the box?"

Bend 'em just like they come. They are dead-soft and filled with pitch. Let the pitch come up to room temperature and have at it. However... you've only got 'one shot'. Once it's bent... you can take it a little farther. But... bending it back is not normally doable.

[Lee Stofer]

Let me emphasize the importance of having valves that do not leak, and slides that fit reasonably well, too. Until you have it assembled that way, you do not know what you have. I have discussed this with Mr. Blackburn, of Blackburn Trumpets, who refuses to do custom work on a customer's trumpet unless/until the valves have good compression.

If the instrument was close to playing E-natural instead of Eb, then it may have had a high-pitch/low-pitch main tuning slide extension, which presumably you do not have. I would suggest getting the valves rebuilt, reassemble the instrument as best you can in the original confirguration, and then do testing and measuring. Instead of messing with leadpipe length, I would suggest getting inner/outer telescoping tubing the closest size to original, and if you need to lengthen the instrument, make a main slide with longer ferrules.

Best wishes for a good project!

[Tubajug]

Sounds like getting this put back together is the first order of business, then going from there in terms of pitch-center. I have an appointment with my tech on March 16 to tackle this and another little project (not that this one is at all "little!").

The penetrating oil hasn't moved the slides at all, so we'll have to get them pulled with the tapered rod/plug method.

We'll solder on the third valve knuckle.

Maybe get a few more dents out.

Then de-dent my leadpipe from my Bach/Olds Bb so I can swap the bell out with the bell I bought from Ben (another project I'm sure I'll be posting about!).

I'm not looking to dump a whole lot of money into this. My goal from the beginning was to do as much as possible on my own and end up with a playable horn. My tech is leaving it up to me to get things unsoldered (the crooks off the slides for example) and then putting it back together at the end will be my job. The lead pipe will be the most expensive part I think (the price he found me was about $66 for the pipe and about $20 for a receiver). I won't likely rebuild the valves and hope that thick valve oil does enough of the trick.

Longer slide legs for the main slide will likely be my pitch fix when all is said and done.

Thanks for all the help everyone! Feel free to chime in with any other thoughts or suggestions!