C Tubas at school

[iiipopes]

It's the vast treble-clef conspiracy, I tell ya...

Indeed it is. Saxhorns and saxophones, and the beginnings of British brass band music, were written in transposed notation for ease of teaching amateur groups.

Did you think I was guessing?
Rick " " Denney

No, just agreeing with you.

[TubadudeCA]

Something similar, some people (including other tuba players) think i'm a really good site reader because i can "transpose" BBb tuba music on a CC tuba I've even heard this from high school directors.....

I heard this exact same thing from my College Band director. Which also resulted in several students patting me on the back.

[ralphbsz]

OK, so let me ask a serious question (I'm a pianist, so I know little about tuba playing):

When playing the same notated music (notated in concert pitch) on different horns (BBb vs. CC vs. Eb vs. F, or even euphonium in Bb), which of these two thought processes does a tuba player use:

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments. ... or ...

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

As a pianist, I only know about transposing. If a singer wants to do the "revenge aria of the Queen of the Night", but can't reach the highest stuff, I just need to play everything a third lower, which is done by deliberately playing different notes. It's not a different fingering (which usually stays the same, except for some fingers being better for black vs. white keys). How to tuba players do it?

[PMeuph]

But of course, to say every instrument's do is C is absolutely wrong.

Unless you use a system where do is just a note name. In that case, do is always C!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8 ... lf.C3.A8ge" target="_blank

[termite]

Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments.

This is the case.
I believe that in America tuba players start off learning concert pitch fingerings on BBb tuba reading bass clef.
Then when they add or switch to a different tuba, usually CC and later F tuba they learn new fingerings as though learning a new instrument.

Some people who play BBb tuba could pick up a CC and "transpose" to get the different fingerings but many cannot because you have to pitch the notes on tuba like a singer, it's not just the fingerings.

In my case as an Australian who first learnt to play BBb tuba from treble clef in the brass band system, I had to learn a new set of fingerings when I learnt to play from concert pitch bass clef parts. I now have two sets of fingerings in my head for the same instrument.

The pitch of woodwind instruments IS defined by the actual sounding pitch of a standard C major scale fingering. The fingering for C varies from instrument to instrument as does F but D, E, G, A and B are pretty much the same. This applies to recorder, flute, saxophone and clarinet (once you get over the break). I haven't played oboe or bassoon so I don't know if it holds true for them.

Thus woodwind players doubling on flute, clarinet and saxophone, are, to a large degree using a common set of fingerings on all instruments in the same way that a brass band player is using the same trumpet fingerings on whatever instrument they pick up. (Except for bass trombone of course).

You can teach someone fingerings to make BBb tuba function as a concert pitch reading instrument but it is still definitely a BBb tuba.
The valves are transposing buttons. When you push down the second valve the instrument becomes a tuba in A. Instead of the bugle calls in Bb major it played on open you get them in A major and so on with the different combinations.

Regards

Gerard

[Uncle Buck]

OK, so let me ask a serious question (I'm a pianist, so I know little about tuba playing):

When playing the same notated music (notated in concert pitch) on different horns (BBb vs. CC vs. Eb vs. F, or even euphonium in Bb), which of these two thought processes does a tuba player use:

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments. ... or ...

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

As a pianist, I only know about transposing. If a singer wants to do the "revenge aria of the Queen of the Night", but can't reach the highest stuff, I just need to play everything a third lower, which is done by deliberately playing different notes. It's not a different fingering (which usually stays the same, except for some fingers being better for black vs. white keys). How to tuba players do it?

For me, the answer was always "1." I can't imagine trying to play differently pitched tubas under the "2." method, and none of my teachers ever would have tolerated it.

I assume the answer is the same for most other tuba players.

[The Big Ben]

OK, so let me ask a serious question (I'm a pianist, so I know little about tuba playing):

When playing the same notated music (notated in concert pitch) on different horns (BBb vs. CC vs. Eb vs. F, or even euphonium in Bb), which of these two thought processes does a tuba player use:

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments. ... or ...

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

As a pianist, I only know about transposing. If a singer wants to do the "revenge aria of the Queen of the Night", but can't reach the highest stuff, I just need to play everything a third lower, which is done by deliberately playing different notes. It's not a different fingering (which usually stays the same, except for some fingers being better for black vs. white keys). How to tuba players do it?

For me, the answer was always "1." I can't imagine trying to play differently pitched tubas under the "2." method, and none of my teachers ever would have tolerated it.

I assume the answer is the same for most other tuba players.

It's kind of a "You say toe-may-to, I say toe-maa-toe" kind of thing.

"Traditionally" tuba music (with the exception of brass band music) is written in concert pitch and, depending on the key of the tuba in question, different fingerings are used. The different fingerings should more accurately be called "transposing fingerings" because that is what they are. The fingerings have been modified to reflect the different keys and, instead of doing the transposing in your head as you play, you simply use a different set of fingerings. You *could* transpose as you went along but that is not how it is done with the tuba.

I have played the Bb trumpet in orchestra situations where a part written for a "trumpet in D" or a "trumpet in C" part has been placed on my stand and I had to take it from there. The way I was taught this was to do it 'on the fly'. Doing the transposition for the "trumpet in C" parts on the Bb trumpet was pretty easy. I once had to play a part written for a "trumpet in A" and not really being a skilled trumpet player, I couldn't quite get that one and the director ended up rewriting it for me. I suppose a talented, professional player would have a horn in each one of the keys but I just had my Bb trumpet so had to just go with it.

Either way that you do it, the objective is to make the correct tone. Tubas do the transposing via conscious fingering changes but other instruments do it via the 'transpose on the fly' method.

[sloan]

"Traditionally" tuba music (with the exception of brass band music) is written in concert pitch and, depending on the key of the tuba in question, different fingerings are used. The different fingerings should more accurately be called "transposing fingerings" because that is what they are. The fingerings have been modified to reflect the different keys and, instead of doing the transposing in your head as you play, you simply use a different set of fingerings. You *could* transpose as you went along but that is not how it is done with the tuba.

Really? Tell me...when I play on an Eb tuba - what key am I transposing FROM?

If the music is written at concert pitch, and I play it on a <pick one...any one> tuba at concert pitch, I don't think it's at all useful to call what's going on "transposing".

Put another way - do you think there is a type of tuba that does NOT use "transposing fingerings"?
If they ALL are "transposing" - the question again is: what are you transposing FROM?

[termite]

Playing A, C and D trumpet parts on Bb trumpet is not the same as playing concert pitch parts on F, Eb, CC and BBb tubas.

Playing C trumpet parts on A, Bb, C, D and Eb trumpets is the same however, and is not "transposing" - it is rendering the part on different instruments.

Playing A, C and D trumpet parts on Bb trumpet is transposing however.

As a clarinettist I was expected to be able to play A, Bb and C clarinet parts on either Bb or A clarinet. After a while these standard transpositions became like a second and third set of fingerings. I imagine horn players would be in a similar situation only with many more different transpositions but probably simpler parts.

Gerard (This is getting boring)

[The Big Ben]

As a clarinettist I was expected to be able to play A, Bb and C clarinet parts on either Bb or A clarinet. After a while these standard transpositions became like a second and third set of fingerings. I imagine horn players would be in a similar situation only with many more different transpositions but probably simpler parts.

Gerard (This is getting boring)

"After a while these standard transpositions became like a second and third set of fingerings."

So, in order to transpose the music, the clarinettist effectively learns another set of fingerings. Since this is getting boring I'm gonna drop out and have another beer. I guess I'm not sophisticated enough in my musical knowledge to express myself properly.

[eupher61]

Actually, to call it transposing or not depends on your point of origin, and the means to get to playing the note at hand.

As an example...player learned to play on a BBb tuba. He's given an Eb tuba suddenly, and told everything is a fourth off. He can approach that in two ways:

Think like a trumpet or horn player (to a somewhat lesser degree, clarinet and even lesser sax player) and think intervalically. Eb is a fourth higher than Bb, so, to play an F below the staff, it's a fourth up from C that he's familiar with boom* 4th valve.

Or, just make the connection between fingerings. Eb scale is 0-4-12-1-etc...so E scale is 24-23-1-3-etc and go from there.

It accomplishes the same thing, either way it's approached.

We tend to think "bass clef is bass clef" because we don't want to get bogged down in transposition problems. But, there must be some, maybe former horn players, who think differently.

When I'm reading a lead sheet, I think pitches. If the tune is in G on the leadsheet, and we're playing in F, I could switch from my F tuba to an Eb tuba, use the same fingers, and be fine. But I am able to make THAT transposition on the fly just fine. (which is good, since I no longer have an Eb tuba.) Thinking about transposing when I switch BBb to F or whatever tuba, makes my brain hurt.

[Rick Denney]

1. You know the fingerings and lip positions for the different instrument. So if the score asks for E, and you are on a CC tuba, you know that this is 2nd partial, valve 1+2, while on a BBb tuba it is 2nd partial valve 2, and on an F tuba it is 1st partial valve 2. But you always think of it as an E. Fundamentally, you have learned the fingerings for four or five different instruments.

That's how I do it, though I don't think of it as an E, but rather as a sound in my head. The "lip positions" are the same because the buzz will be at the concert pitch frequency. So, it's only a matter of mashing the correct buttons so that the instrument will resonate at my buzz frequency. When attempting to transpose, hearing and therefore buzzing the right pitch is a real problem for me, though many others don't have this problem.

I do transpose when playing an octave down, though that is a specialized transposition that is much easier than general transposition. I learned to do it reading string-bass music on tuba (string-bass music is written an octave higher than concert pitch). But it also makes playing euphonium much easier because I'm accustomed to those fingerings in that register.

Rick "who does occasionally have Bb-tuba moments when playing F tuba" Denney

[Rick Denney]

"Traditionally" tuba music (with the exception of brass band music) is written in concert pitch and, depending on the key of the tuba in question, different fingerings are used. The different fingerings should more accurately be called "transposing fingerings" because that is what they are. The fingerings have been modified to reflect the different keys and, instead of doing the transposing in your head as you play, you simply use a different set of fingerings. You *could* transpose as you went along but that is not how it is done with the tuba.

I think even this over-complicates it.

Tubas were invented as a result of the invention of valves that allowed chromatic playing. Most treble-clef instruments were invented when instruments were confined to a harmonic series, or to a very specific and complicated fingering pattern. So, people learned to associate a written note with a fingering pattern or position in the harmonic series. It was easier to alter the music to fit the instrument, and that's why trumpet music might be written for "trumpet in C". Trumpet players might alter the instrument to fit the music by adding a crook, if they didn't have an instrument in the pitch denoted. So, for Trumpet in D, a trumpet player would add a crook to turn his natural trumpet on the C harmonic series to a natural trumpet in the D harmonic series.

Strings, being chromatic, are written in concert pitch, right? (String basses are written an octave above concert pitch, presumably to minimize the number of ledger lines below the F clef. That makes me thankful there was never a contrabass clef that achieved common use!)

Trombones were different than trumpets because they were chromatic instruments--and they were chromatic instruments (i.e., provided with a slide) because they needed to be able to play low in their harmonic series. The composer didn't have to worry about the harmonic series, or anything like that--he could just write the note he wanted and it was up to the trombonist to put his slide in the right place. And there have been trombones in many bugle lengths, from alto-trombones that are shorter than modern tenors, to bass trombones that were longer. They all read the same music. Trombone music might be written in the tenor clef for notational convenience to avoid ledger lines, but that had nothing to do with the pitch of the instrument's bugle, and it's still written in concert pitch.

Tubas play low in the harmonic series, and thus need valves to have a good selection of pitches. Valves made tubas possible. The composers never had to worry about writing for a specific tuba, because any tuba could play any note, so they just wrote music, as with trombones. It was up to the tuba player to know which buttons to push.

So, the buttons only mean this: How much am I lowering the pitch of the bugle? The valves on all modern tubas (at least the first four) do the same thing: The first valve lowers by a whole tone, the second by a semitone, the third by three semitones, and the fourth by five semitones. Thus, fingering patterns remain the same, but the pattern means something different. I never think "that pattern is a Bb scale on a Bb tuba, and an F scale on an F tuba." I think (though, because of practice, subconsiously), "that is an F scale, which on this F tuba goes O, 4, 3, 1, O..." If I had a Bb tuba in my hands, I would think, again without any conscious thought required, "that is an F scale, which on this Bb tuba goes O, 1-2, 2, O..." Note that I used two variations on playing three semitones down from the open bugle in my examples--knowing what the valves do makes such variations easy.

British Brass Band music is different, largely because they wanted mostly minimally trained musicians to be able to switch instruments as needed. So, all music is written to provide the same fingerings on all instruments. That requires the players to hear a different pitch when using different instruments, which is a mental shift for most tuba players. It has to be learned.

Rick "thinking there is a real reason why bass-clef instruments are chromatic and thus provided with concert-pitch music" Denney

[bigtubby]

I think they just mean do/doh as in do-re-mi. But of course, to say every instrument's do is C is absolutely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

^^^ This. I play simple system flutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_system_flute). They encompass precisely the same range as the modern e.g. post ca 1850 Boehm system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boehm_System) flutes.

The one main difference in fingering is that with the four top fingers down, the simple system instrument plays an F# whereas the Boehm instrument plays F natural. These are generally referred to as "D" and "C" instruments respectively. No transposition, simply the fact that the natural diatonic major scale is "D" or "C" (F# or F). Each of the other notes in the diatonic fingerings are identical pitches.

In an attempt to make this thread a bit less dry, here is Matt Molloy demonstrating the capabilities of a simple system flute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ (notice "Sir Jimmy" politely listening while holding his Boehm system flute).

[imperialbari]

Isn’t a Bb clarinet really an Eb instrument with a D extension?

[oedipoes]

2. You transpose in your mind. So if your main instrument is the CC tuba, and today you are playing a BBb horn, you know that you need to transpose everything up a full step. You see an E in the score, you think F#, which is obviously 2nd partial valve 2, and low and behold the sound of the E comes out. Similarly if you happen to have an F tuba in your lap, you have to transpose the music down a fourth, so for the E you play the Bb, which is obviously 1st partial valve 2, and again everything works fine.

I learned it that way, about as much work as learning a new set of fingerings imho ...

Wim

[luke_hollis]

I don't know exactly how, but I can play a Bb on my CC horn. Strange.