miraphone prices rising?

[TUBAMUSICIAN87]

I have heard alot of talk of the prices of miraphones skyrocketing sometime soon does any one know anything about this, when is this supposed to happen?

[phoenix]

well it happens because the US Dollar sucks compared to the Euro and because of that, the prices skyrocket

[Paul S]

Many European makes of tubas have already seen price increases at retailers at the begining of the year. This is indeed due to the exchange rate of the Euro to the Dollar.

Check out a discussion from early January for more details:
viewtopic.php?t=5148&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[tubajoe]

Tuba price stays same. Wampum drops heavy.

Blame the cowboy.

[rascaljim]

This sounds like a thread for Roger Lewis!

[james]

I haven't noticed the prices of other european horns going up quite as much as one model....the 1291, and I can give you two words to explain this rise.....Alan Baer. He has helped design a very nice instrument and when a player of his caliber markets a instrument the demand goes up. And when demand goes up, price goes up. Roger said at one point he couldn't keep those instruments in stock. Hmmmm....didn't that happen with the Gronitz as well? How long is the waiting list? I say this because one Meinl Weston horn I have been checking out in the last eight months has seen very little if any price increase although it at one time was VERY popular. The Miraphone has seen an almost $2000 price increase!!! Don't blame the economy if YOU the buyer create it.

[Paul S]

I haven't noticed the prices of other european horns going up quite as much as one model....the 1291, and I can give you two words to explain this rise.....Alan Baer. He has helped design a very nice instrument and when a player of his caliber markets a instrument the demand goes up. And when demand goes up, price goes up. Roger said at one point he couldn't keep those instruments in stock. Hmmmm....didn't that happen with the Gronitz as well? How long is the waiting list? I say this because one Meinl Weston horn I have been checking out in the last eight months has seen very little if any price increase although it at one time was VERY popular. The Miraphone has seen an almost $2000 price increase!!! Don't blame the economy if YOU the buyer create it.

You might want to check again..
The MW2000 just took a pretty good hike as well. (now right at $14,000)
It appears the 2155 and 2165 might have gone up as well and perhaps some of ther Yamahas but I have not followed those recent pricing enough to remember what they were last Fall. I do know that more than just the model 1291 prices went up from Miraphone.

[Tom]

You might want to check again..
The MW2000 just took a pretty good hike as well. (now right at $14,000)

Yep...

Up from a selling price of c. $10,000 in 2001 to $12,995 for the last couple of years, and now up to c. $14,000.

[Rick Denney]

I haven't noticed the prices of other european horns going up quite as much as one model....the 1291, and I can give you two words to explain this rise.....Alan Baer.

You make two good points, but I think a bigger factor is that Miraphone didn't pay much attention to the difference in currencies until it started to really hit their bottom line, and then it was like a cold splash in the face. They reacted all at once.

I think Gerhard Meinl is more business-oriented and set prices to try to maintain a little bit of price stability in the face of changing currency values.

But you are right that the price is largely determined by the market and not the producer. The 1291's have a lot buzz going for them right now, and that will support a higher price, especially if Miraphone is tapped out in terms of supplying the demand.

People who buy tubas buy them largely on the name that's on the label. If you couldn't tell the difference between a Jin-Bao copy of a 191 and the real thing in terms of how it plays, would you buy the Jin-Bao? Some will, but most won't. It's not a market driven by price, but rather by perception of value. The Chinese tubas do not have that perception going for them, and that is mostly unrelated to playing quality.

In fact, I have a bit of a suspicion that Jin-Bao and Miraphone have a deal. That's just a pure guess, but it seems mighty brazen even for a Chinese producer to make such close copies. But what really makes me suspect a deal is that Miraphone seems to have done nothing to "encourage" their dealers not to sell the Jin-Bao tubas. If I was Mr. Miraphone, and I thought the Jin-Bao tubas would be my death, I would be on the phone to Mr. Brasswind telling him that if he sells Jin-Baos he can kiss his special Miraphone pricing goodbye, and I'd be looking to develop some other high-volume importer/retailer. If, however, Jin-Bao was providing a license fee for each instrument sold, I might call up Mr. Brasswind and recommend them to him. That way, I could move some of the folks I have making 186s's, which are no longer as easy to sell as they once were, over to making 1291's, which are easy to sell. He could still make 186's for those who particularly want a 186, of course.

Again, this is all pure speculation. It may be that behind the scenes Mr. Miraphone is having a heart attack over the Jin-Bao tubas.

As with the Apple example, market share isn't everything. And Miraphone is a privately owned cooperative, and they may not be particularly interested in pure market share. They may measure their success using a different measure. Gerhard Meinl, who is playing with other peoples' money, doesn't have that luxury. GM is probably hoping to draw back some of the market that the 1291 has been capturing lately just because of the big price increase.

Your point about Alan Baer is a good one. It's okay if the 1291 is priced competitively with the tubas played by audition winners if it is also played by the winningest audition winner of them all over the last couple of years.

Rick "wondering if Conn-Selmer is smart enough to take advantage of the current situation" Denney

[manatee]

Rick "wondering if Conn-Selmer is smart enough to take advantage of the current situation" Denney[/quote]

I would sure hope so. I would love to buy American, but unfortunately, for the reasons we all know, my best tuba(s) and bass trombone are made by Yamaha.

[rascaljim]

Does miraphone have their design for the 186 under copywrite? The reason I ask is because there are also tubas by Meinl Weston 25(not as close as the others but still similar) as well as Yamaha 641 that are similar to the 186 design as well. Also, what came first, the miraphone or the MW?

Food for thought
Jim

[Rick Denney]

Seems to me that over the last few years, as European prices have gone up, so have the American prices. Why, other than because they can? There's no real need for American prices to grow exponentially. Sounds like gouging or "keeping up with the Jones'".

OR, have I misinterpreted something.

Remember that price and cost are only related in one direction--that price has to be higher than cost. Other than that, price is controlled by the market.

I wrote in more detail on this subject a while back:

http://www.chisham.com/tips/bbs/may2001 ... 54571.html

Rick "who thinks things sell for what people will pay" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Does miraphone have their design for the 186 under copywrite? The reason I ask is because there are also tubas by Meinl Weston 25(not as close as the others but still similar) as well as Yamaha 641 that are similar to the 186 design as well. Also, what came first, the miraphone or the MW?

Food for thought
Jim

You can't copyright a design. Copyrights are for expressions, not designs, and not products.

You can patent a product, but it has to show something unique that makes it no longer general knowledge that's in the public domain. The Miraphone 186 has been on the market since the 60's, and even if it was patented the patents would have expired by now (they last for 14 years and can be renewed once for another 14 years). The 186 design is in the public domain at this point.

The 191 design is not, but the question is two-fold: 1.) is there something about the 191 that sufficiently breaks new ground to be patentable? And 2.) can such a patent be enforced? Answer is probably no in both cases.

Rick "who knows what it takes to get a patent, and also why it can't be enforced in China" Denney

[Joe Baker]

Also, what came first, the miraphone or the MW?

Cerveny. And the IP rights ran out on that design a LONG time ago. I'm no [edit-- I said copyright, but Rick's right, it should be 'patent'] attorney, but I'd bet that all Jin Bao has to do to avoid an infringement case is to slightly change the name, and slightly change the design. Move a ferrule a half-inch, for example. Just about anything to make it "different".
___________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks that once the Chinese get it right, the rest of the Tuba-making world is going to really get crunched on the school-horn market.

[KevinBock]

I've got to admit this is probably the best discussion in terms of intelligence on tubenet that I can ever recall and it actually drove me to think about things a bit which is shocking since it was inspired by a large group of tuba players . But one thing I'd like to bring up is that this year is a HUGE audition year and for those diehard miraphone fans with their hearts set on 1291s the price may drop a little after we see the kind of equipment that wins Philly, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Colorado, and the Marine Band. Definitely going to be a very interesting time for us all.

[james]

My guess is that these auditions will be won on a tuba with at least four valves with a player behind it who is in total control......
going back to the product demand thing....I would be curious how many people have purchased a 1291 by simply ordering it from Brasswind having never played it simply because of it's endorsement. I think we would all be shocked at this number. THIS drives price up. Ever enquired into buying a Gronitz? Last I checked, no trial period with all money paid up front. Unless of course you fly to San Jose to test them when they come in(which could be next week or six months). And the only Meinl Weston price increase mentioned is the MW2000 which again, has been said to leave the store as soon as it arrives(at least until this last price increase). The other models have seen very little increase. To put it in perspective.....If your local car dealer couldn't keep a certain model on the lot because people were ordering them having never test driven them, do you think the dealer would raise his prices? Of course he would. Ordering a car without test driving it sound absurd? Why is it so common for an even more personal purchase such as a musical instrument? Wouldn't you be better off trying a horn out and making sure the in's and outs and all there for you and not the local symphony guy. These players can be wonderful guides in helping you find an instrument but it should still be a personal choice. For example, in my most recent purchase (after time with many different brands and models)I picked an instrument that is played by many and known for high consistency in production. However, I went through a batch of EIGHT before finding one that had the intonation and right sound I was looking for. Would the company have sent me that same horn had I let them choose for me? They may have sent the one the salesman sounded the best on but is it automatic it will be that way for everyone? Just some thoughts for those out there thinking of purchasing an instrument.

[manatee]

Metaphorically, Baseball players want to swing the same kind of Bat as Barry Bonds. Do they get to try them out? Hell no.
Nobody stocks large numbers of tubas except in the East or Midwest. We have to hope for the best.
Is that bat gonna make me hit bombs like Bonds? No. But it ain't gonna hurt my chances.

[Rick Denney]

Going back to the "low USD value" thing...

There are good and bad sides to everything.

Another response to a weak dollar is that it will once again be cost-effective to make things with U.S. labor. A strong dollar is good for consumers, but a weaker dollar is better for manufacturing workers.

Rick "thinking that's why China keeps bolstering the dollar whenever it can" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Another response to a weak dollar is that it will once again be cost-effective to make things with U.S. labor. A strong dollar is good for consumers, but a weaker dollar is better for manufacturing workers.

Rick "thinking that's why China keeps bolstering the dollar whenever it can" Denney

The problem this time around is that the US is a LONG way off from being the cheapest place to build things, even with a 75% drop in the value of the dollar against the Euro (which certainly will mean big-time inflation here), it's still cheaper to make things in southeast Asia.

When Japan was the big competition for manufactured goods back in the 70's and 80's, it was a different story. Japanese factory workers' salaries were not horribly out of line with their American counterparts. But with labor from the likes of China we have a different story. And China is bolstering its raw materials supplies by cutting trade agreements with countries we've either alienated or ignored.

When do you think the first Chinese-made auto wiill come up for sale here?

[Ace]

Hey, I'll buy two of the new Chinese automobiles if they are as good as my new Jupiter 482 Pro-model 4p 3/4 BBb tuba. It's a very nicely-made, good-sounding, inexpensive instrument. [/quote]