York Copy

[iiipopes]

Why didn't York make more? Two reasons: 1) no demand at the time, and then 2) the Depression hit and the company went out of business.

[thezman]

1) There's a few fairly similar BBb horns of that type that have survived.

Do they ever come up for sale?

6/4 BBb? Yes.

They do, but they are relatively rare compared to say, Conn's or Martin' s of the period. If you rally want one, Dan Oberloh seems to always have one or two he's rebuilding, either in BBb or cutting to CC. You should talk to him. If you use the search function, he's posted some of his photos of rebuilds on here.

If you really want to know more about the horn, Brian Federikson gives as good of a history as we're ever going to get in AJ's biography Song and Wind, all the way from their being constructed for Donatelli to Jacobs selling them to the CSO.

[The Big Ben]

Dan Oberloh seems to always have one or two he's rebuilding, either in BBb or cutting to CC.

Oberloh does not cut.

[Bob Kolada]

What copy is closest to the York that Mr. Jacobs played?

Which one?

[thattubaguy]

Well, copies of those Yorks include, but are not limited to;

• Yamaha York
  Hirsbrunner model 50
  Nirchl Floyd Cooley York model
  New Kanstuls ("grand"(5/4)) have many of the same characteristics of the CSO Yorks, but are not copies
  ...and I'm pretty sure that there are more out there.

[Bandmaster]

Well, copies of those Yorks include, but are not limited to;

• Yamaha York
  Hirsbrunner model 50
  Nirchl Floyd Cooley York model
  New Kanstuls ("grand"(5/4)) have many of the same characteristics of the CSO Yorks, but are not copies
  ...and I'm pretty sure that there are more out there.

Jacobs took his York to Holton to make copies when he was hired as a featured Holton Artist along with the rest of the CSO Brass quintet. Holton made both their Model 345 CC and BBb versions of the York 6/4. I am lucky enough to own an Oberloh restored Holton 345 in BBb.

Hirsbrunner make their HB-50 "Yorkbrunner" copy from measurements taken from Jacobs York, starting back in the late 1970's I believe.

Mienl Wesson started making the model 2165 but it was actual inspired(loosely copied) from a very good Holton 345 CC.

Walter Nirchl makes the Floyd Cooley York model.

Gronitz makes the PCK model 6/4 tuba but I don't know what, if any, horn they based their design on.

Yamaha started making their York copy a few years ago and it carries the largest price tag of any of the copies.

Adams started making copies of the HB-50 in the last year with tooling they purchased from Hirsbrunner.

Big Mouth Brass now makes a new 6/4 model in CC and BBb based on a Holton and carries the smallest price tag.

The new Kanstul 5/4 are NOT based on the 6/4 Jacobs/CSO York, but based more on the York Model 712 which was copied in the 1950's thru 70's as the York-Master made by B&M. I happen to own both a York-Master and a York 712 and I have test played the new Kanstul 5/4.

Here is a recently finished very fine York 6/4 BBb conversion from a 3V upright to a 5V front valve done by Dan Oberloh.

[bisontuba]

Beautiful tuba-- as always, Dan' work is amazing.
Mark

[windshieldbug]

the Depression hit and the company went out of business.

Guess I didn't realize they had been out of business that long! Thanks

The American York company was started by J.W. York in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and eventually sold to Carl Fischer in 1941. Fischer mixed and matched pieces, companies, and sources from around the world, then closed the Grand Rapids plant in 1971. In 1976 the "York" name was sold to Boosey & Hawkes.

Since then, several companies have used the "York" name to make instruments, but the York company that the Jacobs Yorks came from was only active 1898-1940.

York had CC tubas in their catalogs, and a few other originals survive, but only a handful, and the owners aren't generally advertising the fact...

[thattubaguy]

Well, I, being an owner of both an Alex 163 and a (rather small)1918 3v J.W. York Eb, love them both, and would eventually like to get more like them (they are just great horns, and I would highly recommend any original Yorks that haven't been modified (much) and are in good condition. I know a guy in central Florida who has a 3v front-bell, front-action Eb York, made in 1918(and it's silver), so if you're interested, just pm me.

[opus37]

The Kanstul 33 is a direct copy of the York 33 right down to the metal used in the bell. Lee Stofer did the measurements and still has the horn in his shop used for those measurements. The grands were designed off the CSO horns. Lee went up to Chicago and did the measurements. The 66 is in a similar manner a York copy. I have a 66 and can tell you they play and sound great.

[Mark]

The Kanstul 33 is a direct copy of the York 33 right down to the metal used in the bell. Lee Stofer did the measurements and still has the horn in his shop used for those measurements. The grands were designed off the CSO horns. Lee went up to Chicago and did the measurements. The 66 is in a similar manner a York copy. I have a 66 and can tell you they play and sound great.

So are the Kanstul grands 5/4 or 6/4 tubas? Kanstul calls them 5/4; but if they are copies of the CSO Yorks, wouldn't they be 6/4?

[Mark]

I haven't seen the Kanstuls in person. From the pictures, the bottom bow doesn't look like a 6/4.

[Norm Pearson]

The Kanstul 5/4 CC is the same size as a PT6P

Norm

[ScottM]

I believe the bore on a Mirafone 184 is .705. The 185 was .740 and it was .778 on the 186. At least that is what the brochure from the 1970's I have says.
Inside the cover there is a picture of a pretty young Jim Self!!
ScottM

[Bandmaster]

The Kanstul 33 is a direct copy of the York 33 right down to the metal used in the bell. Lee Stofer did the measurements and still has the horn in his shop used for those measurements. The grands were designed off the CSO horns. Lee went up to Chicago and did the measurements. The 66 is in a similar manner a York copy. I have a 66 and can tell you they play and sound great.

So are the Kanstul grands 5/4 or 6/4 tubas? Kanstul calls them 5/4; but if they are copies of the CSO Yorks, wouldn't they be 6/4?

I have played the new Kanstul 5/4, both the CC and the BBb versions. I own a Holton 345 which is a copy of the CSO York and I own a York 5/4 model 712. I have had someone playing a Kanstul 5/4 sitting right next to me while I was playing my Holton and I sat in at the Gene Porkorny Seminar last June in Redlands where there were several new Kanstul 5/4 tubas sitting right next to Gene's CSO York. The Kanstul is SMALLER than the CSO York!!!!! If Lee took measurements from the CSO York something got lost in the translation. The bottom bows are in no way the same size. The bell from the Kanstul will fit on either my York-Master or my York 712. That being said, the Kanstul 5/4 is a great playing tuba that creates a really big wonderful sound.

[Mark]

The Kanstul 5/4 CC is the same size as a PT6P

Thank you. That answers the question.

[Ferguson]

I've spent some time with Kanstul tubas. The 5/4 tubas are original designs, but the CC did turn out to be very close in size to a PT6P as stated above. It was coincidence as far as I know. These instruments started out as modifications of a 5/4 marching contrabass bugle to create concert tubas. Kanstul ended up making all new bell and bottom bow mandrels at least, as well as a new .750"+ valve set, so only a few parts from the bugle were reused.

Kanstul did measure the 6/4 CSO York, but has not made a tuba that size. Funny story: Kanstul sent some of his staff to Univ. of Redlands, CA when Gene Pokorny was there with the York. One of the team, a fellow well versed in measuring instruments, was using an old paper tape measure that he got for free in the furniture department of Ikea. You've seen those right? There are always a bunch hanging on a hook. You just tear one off. One of the others noticed his tape and said, "Hey, wait a minute" and compared the paper tape to his metal tape measure.

Of course it was way off. Now chastised, the first fellow used a proper measuring tape and got the measurements. Imagine if they'd done their best replica of the York, then found out everything was 5% off. heheheheheheh

Kanstul does make a 6/4 bell. Mike Roylance has one on is BSO Nirschl. I don't know what other horns it's for. The 6/4 tuba project was to be a commission by the CSO to build the first one. I don't know that they ever worked out an agreement about that.

Kanstul's 4/4 top piston York models are his best vintage replica of the York models. The front piston BBb and Eb and the 4/4 model 90 CC are original designs. The front piston BBb and Eb use the same bows as the top piston. The CC reuses the bell and bottom bow, and the other branches are distinct to that horn. That 90 is a nice horn BTW. The reach to the first slide is awkward, but it plays really nicely. I chose one over a Hirsbrunner HB2P for a few years. The smaller bore is a little different blow, but it's easier to control still effective down low. They're a little light on the details though. (No nickel slides, looks a little more home-made than handmade, buffing marks. Mine had a tapered ferrule on backwards. Oopsie...)

SF

[thattubaguy]

The model 90 is a copy of a cut down York CC, that I borrowed for a few weeks, and played next to a model 90(well, I played them at the same time,) and they are very, very similar, both in design and playing characteristics.

[pjv]

I own a Kanstul F and it looks to me as if the "special alloy bells" are red brass.

I believe Kanstul claims that this alloy is very similar to what York used on their horns. Does this mean that Yorks are made from red brass or am I getting something twisted here?

[thattubaguy]

No, it truly is a special alloy very close to what was used in the bells of all of the grand rapids Yorks, and not just"red brass."