Does Country of Origin Matter When You Buy a Horn?

[PMeuph]

.....But as a euphonium player, if I object solely on the grounds of clone-ness, that leaves me and my brother and sister euphoniumists in a bad way. Virtually every major pro-level euphonium made today could be called a Besson clone (and Besson may have originally been copying some other design, for all I know).

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys. Euphonium players basically have about 4 options when buying new horns. (Compensating 4 valve, non-compensating 4 valve, 3 valve, and rotary horns). I would try to list all the variants on tubas but could probably not do so in such a concise manner.

I would venture to say that most of the clones sold to amateurs are the 4 valve compensating or 4 valve non-comp. The rotary valve euph is probably more popular in europe and more likely sells as a "novelty" item here.

[pgym]

Respectfully, the question was "Does country of origin matter?", which is a yes/no question.

The question was phrased in a way that assumes that country of origin is a primary criterion when buying a horn, that can be answered in isolation.

As Mr. Denny's answer illustrates, there are other--and for many, if not most would-be buyers--more important criteria to consider when buying a horn: criteria that may relegate country-of-origin to secondary or tertiary importance if not render it entirely moot, and in so doing, shows that framing the question as a "yes/no" dilemma, in isolation from other considerations, is both simplistic and fallacious.

[Rick Denney]

So given your explanation (which is interesting), I think you're saying "yes." It's not the only thing, but it does matter in determining your expectations and price considerations...is that what you're saying?

Actually, what I'm saying is that when people are "just talking", it matters, but when money is on the line, it doesn't, because the price is set to offset their preference. That is, of course, a generality. But any piece of junk has a price point at which somebody will buy it, even if just for scrap. Very few even unplayable instruments go straight to the landfill.

So, when you ask people their opinion, what level of commitment to that opinion are you using to test your answers? Without thinking through that, the opinion is not worth much. The price they are willing to pay is the measure, and in my opinion (with respect to Dave), makes the question less pure when it is not considered.

If he merely wanted some anecdotal data to consider, he's getting that.

Edit: I could have answered it this way, without a poll: Would you pay as much for a Chinese-made Miraphone clone as for a German-made Miraphone, if everything was equal about the two instruments? If you won't, then you have demonstrated a preference based on country of origin (or a belief that such preference will exist when you go to sell the instrument). Of course, all else is not equal, but I can envision a day when it is. That the Chinese clones have to sell for some small fraction of what a new German original sells for is evidence of preference that is far more accurate than people expressing opinions to which they may not be committed.

Rick "who'll settle for 'it shouldn't have been a yes/no question'" Denney

[Donn]

Actually, what I'm saying is that when people are "just talking", it matters, but when money is on the line, it doesn't, because the price is set to offset their preference. That is, of course, a generality. But any piece of junk has a price point at which somebody will buy it, even if just for scrap. Very few even unplayable instruments go straight to the landfill.

But the question is not whether somebody would buy a tuba no matter what its origin. The question is whether origin would make a difference in your decision. Everything you're saying seems to imply that it would, why not just say so and be done with it?

[sousaphone68]

1/777

OK I will ask what is 1/777 ?

[imperialbari]

0,00128700129

[ghmerrill]

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys.

While to some degree this is true, it is largely a matter of fashion (or "à la mode", if we wish to follow some of the recommendations in a recent thread concerning Arban, according to which we should be thinking in French) There are in fact a significant number of instruments reasonably called "euphoniums" (or perhaps 'barytons', or even "tenor horns" -- the terminology here is hardly rigid or precise). There are all these crazy Europeans -- frequently German-speaking, it must be admitted -- running around the Alps (and other mountain ranges). They are having a really good time playing Blasintrumenten of various sorts that LOOK like baritones or euphoniums, and you can even order an impressive range of these things (if you have the funding) from American distributors or eBay (or in some cases, Chinese distributors). Three valves, four valves, five valves ... Knock yourself out. Czech, German, whatever. And never mind that over time the borders of the European countries moved back and forth pretty much like a pendulum. Drop into Alsace (e.g., Strasbourg) and see how much German is spoken.

I am reflecting now that I'm not supposed to understand and benefit from Arban unless I read French and am steeped in the milieu in which Arban was writing, I am not supposed to understand the Koran unless I can read it in Arabic. I'm not supposed to understand Plato unless I can read it in the original Greek. Hell, if I walk a half mile down my road I guess I'm not supposed to understand my neighbor.

The message I take a way from all this is that at certain points we should regard some people as bad and not buy stuff from them. Okay. But it doesn't meant that their stuff isn't good. It just means that for reasons other than quality we don't want to buy it. Then we should argue about that and not try to make the quality argument when that isn't at all the point. Unless you distinguish between "I wouldn't buy from X because X's products are crap" and "I wouldn't buy from X because there are political or economic reasons not to", then any survey asking whether you would buy from X is meaningless.

[PMeuph]

Also, there is a fundamental difference between euphonium players and tuba players with regards to buying instruments in general. Tuba players not only have more models, they also have more keys.

While to some degree this is true, it is largely a matter of fashion (or "à la mode", if we wish to follow some of the recommendations in a recent thread concerning Arban, according to which we should be thinking in French) There are in fact a significant number of instruments reasonably called "euphoniums" (or perhaps 'barytons', or even "tenor horns" -- the terminology here is hardly rigid or precise). There are all these crazy Europeans -- frequently German-speaking, it must be admitted -- running around the Alps (and other mountain ranges). They are having a really good time playing Blasintrumenten of various sorts that LOOK like baritones or euphoniums, and you can even order an impressive range of these things (if you have the funding) from American distributors or eBay (or in some cases, Chinese distributors). Three valves, four valves, five valves ... Knock yourself out. Czech, German, whatever. And never mind that over time the borders of the European countries moved back and forth pretty much like a pendulum. Drop into Alsace (e.g., Strasbourg) and see how much German is spoken.

....Don't forget to mention Saxhorns....

When, the oval baritones came out on eBay several years ago, I was really tempted to get one. However, I just couldn't venture to spend $600 on it. I doubt I would get an amati or (much less) an alexander.

To me, country of origin doesn't really matter, it is a purely economical question. Do they have what I want for the price I want? If yes, I get it. If no I don't.

Ultimately, tubists have this debate because tubists are the most likely to be affected by the price range of their horns. Heck, a good used CC costs almost twice what I payed for my Yamaha 642 (it was a store demo). For that price, I can almost pay my rent for the year.

[Rick Denney]

The question is whether origin would make a difference in your decision. Everything you're saying seems to imply that it would, why not just say so and be done with it?

It does not make a difference in my decision to buy. It makes a difference in what I'm willing to pay. Treating a buy decision like it's binary is simplistic. At worst, it's used to bolster someone's idea that people are hopeless xenophobes, or that they are disloyal, or some other ridiculous conclusion. I'm quite sure this is not in Dave's mind or intentions, but that isn't the point.

Again, in 1984 I was (as I still am) a committed anti-communist. Yet I bought a tuba made in communist Czechoslovakia which was then fully part of the Soviet empire. Would I have paid a Miraphone price for it? No. At the same price, I would not have bought a Czech tuba versus a German tuba. But the reason is that the German tuba would have been better made, prettier, more durable, and it would give me something fancier to show off to my section-mates. (I will not insist that my Miraphone actually played that much better than that Cerveny, though it was surely different.)The fact is that at the time, that's the best tuba I could afford, at about one-third of what a new Miraphone would have cost. It is simply not possible to remove price from the equation and have any equation left. And if you consider the price, the question becomes unnecessary because the prices that tubas command already answers the question of where preferences lie.

Rick "who can't answer a question based on a fallacious premise" Denney

[Donn]

It does not make a difference in my decision to buy. It makes a difference in what I'm willing to pay. Treating a buy decision like it's binary is simplistic.

I can't read Dave Werden's mind, but to me you're reading too much into the question. If it makes a difference in what you're willing to pay, clearly that's part of your decision to buy. Thus, your answer is "yes."

[sousaphone68]

0,00128700129

thats the same answer I got from google

[MartyNeilan]

I was in China over this past Christmas and New Years, touring with an orchestra. I went in quite a few instrument shops in Beijing and saw pretty much nothing but junk for sale in the way of brass instruments. I didn't see any high-end music stores at all...

No disrepect to Doug, as he probably knows more about instruments than most of us on this board. However, I could go to virtually all of the "music stores" in Nashville aka Music City, and most of the brass instruments I would find could barely be considered student quality, at best.
There are only a handful of places in this county where one could seriously shop for professional tubas; in a country like China where the tuba is not as popular I would be surprised if you could find any at all.

[Doug Elliott]

Correct. I didn't see any tubas, AND I was just walking up a street that had about 20 music stores on it, I didn't search out the big ones. But all of the trumpets and trombones were the type I might expect to see at a Walmart, not anything I would recommend to anybody.

[Bob Kolada]

I've had a Amati euphonium for about 15 years, longer than anything else I've ever owned. I still like it, play it when I play euph, and have done a fair amount of paying gigs on it. I did used to get crap from people about the horn but since I outplayed those folks I never really cared. It was a gift from my parents in eighth grade and it's not going anywhere, it's far too useful.

Country of origin is not really a deal to me unless there is a price conundrum- a 1291 clone may play well overall but I'm not paying Miraphone prices, new OR used, for it. I've owned a Jin Bao F tuba and a Schiller branded rotary bass trumpet (unsure of brand). The purchase of the first was a mistake, the selling of the second was rather close to also being a mistake (played fine, needed a little work, but really could not stand the ergonomics). I'd consider another Chinese made horn but would have to try it first. I did buy, in person, a used Schiller branded comp euph for a friend that plays very, very well.

[saktoons]

Does the country of origin matter when buying a horn? Nope. I don't care what country the purchaser is from...just as long as he buys a German horn.

(OK, I have an American horn, also.)

[eupher61]

I remember a major symphony player in the 80s who got a call from Yamaha, wanting a major US made trombone to copy. SInce that player had an agreement with said American manufacturer, the model was sent to Japan, copied and prototyped, and the final prototype as well as the original trombone ended up back with the player.

Foreign made copies are nothing new.

[sloan]

See below.

(if you like, you can add in a Chinese Euph purchased by someone in a land that's not quite Southern and not quite Western and somehow pretends to be both - but I'm not really a Euph player (and not really much of a tuba player, either). We won't speak of the pianos, trombone, trumpet, and Baritone.

I suppose if I had more money (or much less), I might have something assembled by someone who spoke German...or Portugese...but I don't. But, that's accidental.

My selection method is quite simple: if I like it...and can convince myself that I need it...I buy it.

One of these days I'll have to sell something.

Now...Rick Denney's post is (as usual) intelligent, but I think he gets cause and effect backwards. He gives a long list of price/performances that he has observed and pegged them to various countries of origin. But, I doubt that he would pass up a good horn at a good price BECAUSE it came from a country that usually provides a less favorable deal. Correlation is not causation (but, he knows that). I mean, anyone who will buy Russian cameras will buy anything!