Tuba Flea Market - Looking for your input!

[tofu]

Over the years I've gone to a number of flea markets and while I keep an eye out for instruments I never really see very many and the ones I have seen were almost beyond wall hanger status. Pretty much junk being sold by people who basically had no instrument knowledge other than if somebody inquired it must be valuable.

I'm sure many of you who are not in the business of musical instruments have collected a number of things over the years that maybe you would like to sell, but don't want the hassle of doing it piecemeal online or dealing with shipping of both small and large items etc. be it a case, wenger chair mouthpiece etc.

So I've been kicking around the idea of putting on a musical instrument and related instrumental items only -flea market. No t-shirts/dolls/pie/vendors of trinkets etc. I think there is a market out there for something like this - but I'm not sure how big or repetitive it is. So I'm looking for some input/feedback from both potential sellers and buyers.

This would be held in a suburban venue outside of Chicago - both to keep costs down for everybody and to have a large base to draw from of potential buyers and sellers. It is a private venture - funded by private capital that does demand a return on capital - so it will be run in an efficient and cost effective manner both to insure profitability and to provide a good value to both buyer and seller.

I realize everybody would like to attend for free -but there are costs involved to put something like this on and I'm not running a charity so please give me an idea of what you honestly would be willing to pay etc.

I'm not sure if just a low brass event would bring out enough folks to make something like this sustainable which is why I lean towards making all instruments but I'm open to the idea of just low brass if there is sufficient demand.

Buyers - how much would you be willing to pay to get in the door? How often would you attend? Monthly - quarterly - every 6 months - once a year - never

How far are you willing to travel to attend?

Would you come in the Winter - if it was held indoors? Would you come if it was held inside in the summer? How about outside in the summer?

Sellers - how much would you pay for say a 5 foot wide space - 10 foot -15 foot? Would those of you in the instrument repair/sales as a business attend?

How far would you travel to sell your items?

Those just selling a couple items - would a general consignment table work? What would you feel comfortable with as a flat fee or percentage to the house?

I know a large fairgrounds indoor building might be not the best place to try out a horn, but would it be a reasonable place to get an idea if you wanted to pursue a particular sellers horn?

There are just a few of the many questions I have - but I would just like to gather up some feedback and ideas to see if it is something worth pursuing.

I really would like to hear your honest feedback - ideas - concerns -input.

Thanks!

[sousaphone68]

As a buyer I would not pay to enter a venue to see if anybody had anything worth buying.
If I was charged an admission fee I would expect a lecture or a performance not just a market.

[saxophyte]

There is a monthly musical instrument flea market in mt dora florida near orlando. I have never attended .
here is the link http://www.renningers.com/dora/musicswap.html" target="_blank

[Steve Marcus]

Tofu,

You may remember the annual Mammoth Music Mart that took place in early autumn under a huge tent in the parking lot of Old Orchard Shopping Center in the north shore suburbs of Chicago.

There were (in declining order of quantity) tens, maybe thousand of hundreds of used LPs, CDs, cassettes, 8-tracks, reel-to-reel tapes, VHS tapes, DVDs, audio/video gear, and...musical instruments.*

Occasionally, live performers would appear gratis (my brass quintet appeared one year). Their performance would be appreciated by a live audience on site AND on the radio.

On the last day of the event, visitors could purchase records and other items by the box-full at reduced prices so that there was a minimum of leftover inventory for storage or other means of dissemination.

There was a modest admission fee, which was reduced on the last day or two of the 10-day event. But here's the hook: The media were willing to advertise the event and even do remote broadcasts from the tent because the admission fees and perhaps a percentage of the proceeds benefited research for a cure for ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). Workers were mostly volunteers.

This scope and scale of the Mammoth Music Mart may be far beyond what you envision for an instrument swap meet. Indeed, the MMM stopped its annual event because of the huge amount of labor required, perhaps insurance issues, and the growing availability of cheap/free recorded music online.

However, the concept of working in conjunction with a not-for-profit organization with a clear benefit to a recognized charity may provide you with the means to fund some or all of the expense. Moreover, visitors would come to the event with a pre-conditioned "feel good" effect of supporting the charity, even if they ended up with no merchandise.

You might even be able to create your own not-for-profit organization much more closely related to the your original theme--one in which musical instruments that are not claimed by a guest or participant are made functional and donated to schools in areas, unlike Naperville, where the funding has been lacking or non-existent for the support and maintenance of a music education program.

The ideal venue would be indoors. Perhaps you could even find a venue where people who wanted to try out an instrument in a non-elephant room atmosphere could "rent" a larger room or hall for a dollar a minute. (Wentz? Pheasant Run?)

These are just some rough ideas. YMMV. Good luck in bringing your idea to fruition.

*In the last year of the MMM's operation, I found 3 LPs for which I had been searching for years, including an extremely rare stereo copy of the so-called Torchy Jones Brass Quintet's "Catch the Brass Ring" (the LP that Ormandy demanded that Columbia Records pull off the shelves after a very small quantity had been pressed because his Philadelphia Orchestra brass players had commited the blasphemy of recording and releasing a non-classical album--even though some of the arrangements were based upon classical themes).

[Lee Stofer]

Tofu,
This is an interesting proposition. Please PM me about this.

[Ken Herrick]

Maybe someplace like Roosevelt U. while Midwest is on. Lots of people in town and an affordable venue, for vendors and buyerss, should go well.
Just a thought from the land down under.....

[tofu]

Tofu,

You may remember the annual Mammoth Music Mart that took place in early autumn under a huge tent in the parking lot of Old Orchard Shopping Center in the north shore suburbs of Chicago.

There were (in declining order of quantity) tens, maybe thousand of hundreds of used LPs, CDs, cassettes, 8-tracks, reel-to-reel tapes, VHS tapes, DVDs, audio/video gear, and...musical instruments.*

Occasionally, live performers would appear gratis (my brass quintet appeared one year). Their performance would be appreciated by a live audience on site AND on the radio.

On the last day of the event, visitors could purchase records and other items by the box-full at reduced prices so that there was a minimum of leftover inventory for storage or other means of dissemination.

There was a modest admission fee, which was reduced on the last day or two of the 10-day event. But here's the hook: The media were willing to advertise the event and even do remote broadcasts from the tent because the admission fees and perhaps a percentage of the proceeds benefited research for a cure for ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). Workers were mostly volunteers.

This scope and scale of the Mammoth Music Mart may be far beyond what you envision for an instrument swap meet. Indeed, the MMM stopped its annual event because of the huge amount of labor required, perhaps insurance issues, and the growing availability of cheap/free recorded music online.

However, the concept of working in conjunction with a not-for-profit organization with a clear benefit to a recognized charity may provide you with the means to fund some or all of the expense. Moreover, visitors would come to the event with a pre-conditioned "feel good" effect of supporting the charity, even if they ended up with no merchandise.

You might even be able to create your own not-for-profit organization much more closely related to the your original theme--one in which musical instruments that are not claimed by a guest or participant are made functional and donated to schools in areas, unlike Naperville, where the funding has been lacking or non-existent for the support and maintenance of a music education program.

The ideal venue would be indoors. Perhaps you could even find a venue where people who wanted to try out an instrument in a non-elephant room atmosphere could "rent" a larger room or hall for a dollar a minute. (Wentz? Pheasant Run?)

These are just some rough ideas. YMMV. Good luck in bringing your idea to fruition.

*In the last year of the MMM's operation, I found 3 LPs for which I had been searching for years, including an extremely rare stereo copy of the so-called Torchy Jones Brass Quintet's "Catch the Brass Ring" (the LP that Ormandy demanded that Columbia Records pull off the shelves after a very small quantity had been pressed because his Philadelphia Orchestra brass players had commited the blasphemy of recording and releasing a non-classical album--even though some of the arrangements were based upon classical themes).

Steve,

I completely forgot about MMM. I bought a lot of records/cd's there through the years, but I don't remember seeing a lot of instruments -but it has been years since I was there. It was sad when that went away.

One of the things I have thought about would be live music. The idea being local groups could get some exposure/market themselves and provide some excitement through the day and the event. Had not given any thought to the idea that this also might be a way for musicians/teachers to market themselves to the private lesson market. Insurance/liability is one of the ever escalating issues for events like this. I'd like to keep the admission fees modest to draw people, but at a level that keeps out the got nothing better to do than wander around crowd. It is amazing how free will bring crowds of people to an event that they have no interest in - but it's something to do on a Sunday afternoon with the kids and grab free trinkets. I noticed a few years ago when the local home improvement shows became free in my area that the crowds exploded, but most of the increase was people just looking for something to do and folks like myself looking to actually get something/done stopped coming. At least that is what my contractor friends have told me. Realtors have told me that it is amazing how many people will wander through open houses just for something to do on a Sunday. A modest door fee helps insure that vendors have real buyers browsing. It also helps keeps their fees down and hopefully draws more vendors. Size/scale is an issue. I think there is a certain ideal size/scale that makes it manageable/cost effective/ and big/varied enough to keep folks coming back. I think you're right about MMM - the Ipod etc. was the death blow. Thanks for the input.

[tofu]

There is a monthly musical instrument flea market in mt dora florida near orlando. I have never attended .
here is the link http://www.renningers.com/dora/musicswap.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Very interesting - thanks for the link. Has anybody attended this? I'd be interested in hearing your impressions.

[Art Hovey]

Why limit it to the Chicago area? Maybe (eventually) hitting some other parts of the country would bring in more participants.

[tofu]

I would like to believe that it would be a success. I tend to believe that it would only have a chance of being a success in a huge metropolitan area (yep, Chicagoland rates).

Places such as Baltimore Brass and Dillon Music (with consignment instruments on websites, and open six days/wk.) are defacto (permanent) "tuba flea markets", are they not? Again, in huge metro areas.

...or (as I'm not the brightest bulb in the box) maybe I don't completely understand the concept.

Yes Joe, it really most likely needs to be in a large metro area to succeed. That had not escaped me. You mentioned large retail dealers. The idea isn't really aimed at them or the manufacturers. Around here there are really large long running monthly flea markets. Some are antique flea markets and some are much more narrow in scope such as train shows, clock shows and even the gun shows you mentioned earlier. Think of it in this light - there are retail antique dealers that sell antiques just like there are retail hobby shops that cater to the toy train buyers. But there are also hordes of people who collect/trade/sell etc. antiques or toy trains who need an outlet to buy/sell and the general or narrow flea market fulfills that need on a year round or seasonal basis. Now for the most part if you sell a rare train set at a general flea market you are probably going to have a harder time finding a buyer and probably at a lower price than if you sold it at a train show/flea market because that narrow scope brings out people are looking for toy trains and also have a relative idea of their value. It's a using a rifle versus a shotgun approach. If you are a guy who for whatever reason has a toy train and walk into a retail toy train shop you would be lucky for a variety of reasons of getting even 50% of its value. Take it to a train show and you could reasonably expect 80%. That 30% difference on a $2000 item is an extra $600 in the sellers pocket and the buyer saves 20% so it's a $400 savings in his pocket. WIn-WIn. People expect to pay a less than retail markup which is one reason they go. Also they go for the variety - the unusual, the unexpected and the old or no longer made and even for the fun of it.

And not withstanding what a lot of people in the retail trade like to think - more folks like to haggle than not and (at least think) their abilities got them a better price. For example why have many car dealers adopted the former Saturn one price fits all concept? - because they found on average that resulted in an 11% higher price to the customer. People give up a lot when they buy into the concept that somehow they get a better deal with one price or that haggling is such a burdensome thing to engage in.

This is aimed at the amateur musician from student to adult. Think about the huge number of folks who are out there who are amateur musicians. They range from just making noise to really serious players. They to a large extent fly under the radar and go un-noticed. The instrument manufacturers do a terrible job of even thinking/reaching these folks. They aim at the young student market or the pro-market. I often laugh when I see the list of manufacturer artists. I sometimes will take a list and ask a group of serious amateurs who these folks are - and the result is blank stares and yet the manufacturers think of this as marketing. Think of some of the folks who are fortunate to wander into your shop who are really clueless as to how well their instrument could play if it worked properly or how many of those folks have little knowledge of what is out there or where to buy or who is even available to buy from/get service from/or even take lessons from. Now I know you have all the business you can handle, but for an industrious instrument repair guy it could be a bonanza of on the spot repair clients and much more long term projects and future business such as play restorations. Plus most instrument repair guys also do instrument sales - used/new. Surprisingly people are willing to pay to have it done right if they only knew where to go. I've sent many a person out to my friend Lee Stofer because it's going to be done right at a fair price.

There is also a large number of folks who for a variety of reasons end up with surplus instruments/mouthpieces etc. Now some of that finds it way on to flea bay etc. but for many that is a hassle, expensive and not as easy as say loading up the van - driving a few miles - and spending a Sunday afternoon putting some greenbacks into the pocket and some room in the house/garage/attic.

So I'm kicking it around and seeking input on an exploratory basis. I certainly don't need the income, but I have not gotten this far in life by taking on losing operations or finding ways to waste my time so it needs to be ROI positive. It would be great if it could be built into a cultural positive being an outlet for music/musicians/networking and a cultural happening for attendees. But things like this take a bit to build momentum and traction. I've done successful VC investing before -so this isn't my first rodeo just the first one that I've considered which would be at the much lower margins of the music related biz.

[Biggs]

This:

http://www.musiciansswapmeet.net/

sounds similar to what you are describing (and possibly similar to MMM, which I have never attended). As you can see from the banner crawl, though, this event has been indefinitely suspended.

The LA version charged a small (<$10) entry fee and, at least on the days I attended, seemed pretty busy. As to whether this translated into profits for the sellers, I have no idea. Judging from the suspension, it doesn't seem like it.

BUT I spent nearly $100 on stuff there (drumset hardware, mostly) and have a hard time believing I was the only one to do so.

[Radar]

As a buyer I would pay a modest fee (up to $10) to get into a venue like this if there were enough vendors to make it worth while and there was a fairly good chance I might find an instrument I was interested in buying. The Travel question would be a big one, Chicago is about 9 hours from here, so unless I were traveling there for some other reason, I probably wouldn't make a 9 hour drive each way to attend this. Within a 3 hour drive I could go a get back home in the same day would probably be my limit, and it would have to be a pretty big event to get me to drive that distance.

[tofu]

I would not expect anyone to travel vast distances to attend. Where I would envision holding this would be within 45 minutes for about 8.5 million people and within an hour and a half for about 12 million people. At the 2 hour mark you're up to about 14 million. I'm pretty sure we don't need you Joe. We would encourage you to attend if only to sample the flea market sushi!

I attend a lot of old car and bicycle flea markets (a term which I use loosely) as the term flea market stretches from from very rustic to very slick in peoples minds. People will travel up to two hours (which from here is Madison where I regular go to shows) but the bulk of attendees I would expect to be within 45 minutes drive time.

As far as admission the goal is $5 with $10 being the upper limit. Once you get past $10 people start to think about it and the hope is to keep admission low enough to attract volume which in turn attracts vendors. With high enough volume you can afford to keep a lid on admission AND make it up on concessions (sushi).

[tofu]

This:

http://www.musiciansswapmeet.net/

sounds similar to what you are describing (and possibly similar to MMM, which I have never attended). As you can see from the banner crawl, though, this event has been indefinitely suspended.

The LA version charged a small (<$10) entry fee and, at least on the days I attended, seemed pretty busy. As to whether this translated into profits for the sellers, I have no idea. Judging from the suspension, it doesn't seem like it.

BUT I spent nearly $100 on stuff there (drumset hardware, mostly) and have a hard time believing I was the only one to do so.

Thanks for the link. There are a lot of reasons things sometimes fail. It looks like they're blaming the suspension on the economy. That sometimes is a catch all phrase for under capitalize to be able to ride out the storm(which is the reason about 90% of new businesses fail within the first two years). I'm going to contact them. It could be they lost their lease or insurance premiums went through the roof etc. Did you see a lot of brass and woodwind stuff there?

[Biggs]

This:

http://www.musiciansswapmeet.net/

sounds similar to what you are describing (and possibly similar to MMM, which I have never attended). As you can see from the banner crawl, though, this event has been indefinitely suspended.

The LA version charged a small (<$10) entry fee and, at least on the days I attended, seemed pretty busy. As to whether this translated into profits for the sellers, I have no idea. Judging from the suspension, it doesn't seem like it.

BUT I spent nearly $100 on stuff there (drumset hardware, mostly) and have a hard time believing I was the only one to do so.

Thanks for the link. There are a lot of reasons things sometimes fail. It looks like they're blaming the suspension on the economy. That sometimes is a catch all phrase for under capitalize to be able to ride out the storm(which is the reason about 90% of new businesses fail within the first two years). I'm going to contact them. It could be they lost their lease or insurance premiums went through the roof etc. Did you see a lot of brass and woodwind stuff there?

A lot? No. Some? Yes.

It was guitar-centric, but I don't know that any 'fine' guitars were being sold. A lot of hardware marketed toward customization.