"cimbasso"/"Verdi hated the tuba"/etc.

[J.c. Sherman]

Andre Previn got the nomenclature right; Eb contrabass clarinet and Bb double-bass clarinet.

Contra-alto is below alto; i.e. tenor. Contra =/= 8vb.

J.c.S.

[Donn]

For me (and these were actually my introduction to concert band), they're both contrabass clarinets, Eb and Bb. Maybe one is more contrabass than the other, who cares. It's common usage, too, so there's a chance we could prevail over the contra-alto brain damage.

While we're on nomenclature (this is not only off topic for this thread, it's a reference to an off topic digression in another thread, but ... hey, thread's no use to anyone in the first place) I thought it was funny that the antique bassoon in the museum picture in that begräbnisergrüvung thread was "Bassoon in C". I don't know, maybe it is, but just off the top of my head the cited dimensions seemed similar to normal modern bassoons, so it would be in the same key - F. Bassoon is like tuba, non-transposing.

[Donn]

Are you sure those are basses?

[imperialbari]

Some are happy if their basses are gillded.

[Lingon]

I just noticed that the Bayerische Staatsoper will stream the opera Macbeth by Verdi, May 11th, over the net. A chance to see/hear if they use a modern cimbasso or something else

[Dan Satterwhite]

I can't believe I came home from Traviata last night and read 37 pages of this...
The Internet is funny...does everyone else get the Florida Grand Opera La Traviata ad on the right of the screen when reading this thread, or just us in the area?

Anyway, here are my thoughts, for what they are worth, on the subject. In our present production, Jay is playing cimbasso and its just the right sound. Gives the section a blended, cylindrical, trombone sound. We are using two large bore tenors, and myself on bass. Jay and I both own and play Cimbasso regularly in the area, and I'm glad to say, are very revenue-positive with the instrument. For me, the best sounding cimbassos are for Rudi Meinl and Meinl-Weston, because they are not trying to use some sort of baritone or euphonium bell flare like I see in some of the pictures in this thread...they are really shaped and proportioned like a trombone.

Having played bass trombone, contrabass trombone, and cimbasso at one time or another on the 4th part of a whole lot of Verdi and Puccini, here is what I think works best when using modern instruments...for me (with a section of two large tenors and a bass on 3rd)

Verdi (including the Requiem): cimbasso
Late Verdi (Otello, Falstaff) contrabass trombone
Puccini, except for Turandot: bass trombone
Turandot: Contrabass trombone

In Verdi, the part is often independent of the rest of the section, playing a bass line. It is easy on the cimbasso to darken up a bit and blend with the basses. There are some technique issues that are easier with valves, but nothing too difficult with a slide. In my opinion, Otello is the most technically challenging that Verdi wrote, and it's doable on both bass, and with some work, on contra. If I got called to play Otello tomorrow, I'd play it on bass trombone.

For Puccini, I think all trombones sounds the best. And even Pines of Rome sounds good with four trombones, like the score indicates.


Eric Carlson discussed the airstream when playing cimbasso, and that he likes it better when a trombone player plays it. I agree that the sound is more appropriate when using a faster, less-wide, trombone-like airstream. Sitting beside Jay, he definitely has developed this skill. The best I ever heard a person sound when first trying a cimbasso was Steve Dumaine, as he sorta blows the tuba that way, too.

Dan Satterwhite

[Jay Bertolet]

/bow to Dan, my wonderful section mate!

See you in a couple hours for the matinee...

[Todd S. Malicoate]

That's a lovely post, Dan, and thanks so much for the helpful information.

I can't help but be left wondering, however...why doesn't anyone ever mind the two large bore tenors?

[Dan Satterwhite]

What's to mind? It sounds like a trombone section, and everyone else in the orchestra is playing modern instruments. The cimbasso, in this case, gives the tuba player a cylindrical sound to blend in the way many conductors, and many of us, believe Verdi wanted.

[imperialbari]

Not for display purposes. If sound matters: Yes!

[imperialbari]

From a shade-tree business?

[jsswadley]

Verdi did not hate the tuba, but he did say in a letter that he preferred four trombones. Puccini also wrote for the 'trombone basso' except for the opera Manon Lescaut. If you or your organisation can afford one of these instruments you should try it, it makes a real difference on these parts. Check out the parts to Otello and Falstaff and see if this is not true. John

[J.c. Sherman]

I'll show off a little,

This was a custom job for one of our 'netters; while it's essentially an Eb bass trombone, it's definitely a suitable cimbasso for much of Verdi's output. Man, we had WAAAAAAYYY to much fun with this before shipping it!

Koladaphone2.jpg

[Lingon]

I'll show off a little,

This was a custom job for one of our 'netters; while it's essentially an Eb bass trombone, it's definitely a suitable cimbasso for much of Verdi's output. Man, we had WAAAAAAYYY to much fun with this before shipping it!

Koladaphone2.jpg

What a nice instrument! A real bass trombonium or marching cimbasso??

[Donn]

while it's essentially an Eb bass trombone, it's definitely a suitable cimbasso for much of Verdi's output.

You'd want more valves on an Eb cimbasso? I'm looking for a significant distinction that makes you say this is a (valve) trombone. I would have thought a cimbasso is a bass or contrabass valve trombone, but I know only what I read on Tubenet.

[J.c. Sherman]

while it's essentially an Eb bass trombone, it's definitely a suitable cimbasso for much of Verdi's output.

You'd want more valves on an Eb cimbasso? I'm looking for a significant distinction that makes you say this is a (valve) trombone. I would have thought a cimbasso is a bass or contrabass valve trombone, but I know only what I read on Tubenet.

You would want more valves, yes... or I would. The client didn't. It's a .562 bore bass trombone, but with the bell I use on my contras and cimbassos to add a little heft and help pitch for the longer instrument (allows a longer bell taper). The bell is 10"

The point being, there really isn't a distinction between valve bass/contrabass trombones and modern cimbasso's (and Verdi's ultimately approved design from Pelitti). I call this a bass trombone a) because that was what was requested, and b) the range is limited only to the bass range.

It's a hoot, regardless, to play.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
Saw this on Dillon's website: a late 19th c "modern valve cimbasso"...FYI.. Mark

http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-12518-pari ... basso.aspx" target="_blank

[bisontuba]

Hi-
A 'mellophone' in Bb that is in modern valve cimbasso 'L' shape--courtesy of the Sax Museum from a c. 1881 CG Conn catalog...really fascinating...FYI..mark

[pjv]

Many "L" form trombones were designed for the cavalry.

[imperialbari]

Hi-
A 'mellophone' in Bb that is in modern valve cimbasso 'L' shape--courtesy of the Sax Museum from a c. 1881 CG Conn catalog...really fascinating...FYI..mark

Please give a link to the source for that ad.

Klaus