What makes a "Kaiser"?

[bigtubby]

I recently acquired this beautiful old Bavarian tuba (thanks Dan!) and it seems generally to fit the "Kaiser" mold. While I haven't had the time for proper measurements, it is somewhere between 42 and 44 inches long. The #1 and #2 valve circuits are in the neighborhood of .760" and #3 and #4 approx. .835". I haven't measured the bottom bow and bell throat diameters but they are pretty thick.

Here is a photo with an Amati and my little Schuster. For reference, the Amati is very similar to the current Cerveny CBB 681 except that the bell is about two inches longer (overall length about 40.5"). The Cerveny *81 form factor seems to exemplify a 4/4 tuba - I've read that the Miraphone 186 was modeled on these? Would this be considered a Kaiserbass?


(and yes, I know that these terms and even x/4 size designations aren't etched in stone)

[imperialbari]

Never was a Bavarian tuba. It is made in Münster, which was the capital of the then state Westfalen, now part of Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Klaus

[bigtubby]

Never was a Bavarian tuba. It is made in Münster, which was the capital of the then state Westfalen, now part of Nordrhein-Westfalen.

Klaus

Thanks Klaus, I had a brain fart mixing this up with another recent acquisition that was built in Nuremberg.

So back to the original question, would this be considered a "Kaiser" tuba?

[imperialbari]

Close. 11/8 or so. Maybe 23/16.

[jeopardymaster]

Apparently it's the multi-creased spiral pattern rather than the poppy seeds that makes it one.

[Steve Marcus]

Nirschl-Boehm & Fuchs BBb Kaiser.JPG

[bort]

Cool B&F, but what's going on with that linkage?

[Dan Schultz]

Cool B&F, but what's going on with that linkage?

That's the new folding 'travel linkage'.

[bigtubby]

Apparently it's the multi-creased spiral pattern rather than the poppy seeds that makes it one.

From how high do you need to drop it on the bell to get that look?

[Ben]

Double post...

[Ben]

Some manufactures market their Kaiser rotary horns as big as 0.81" bore, but I'd personnaly save that distinction instruments in the 0.83 or greater territory. Kaiser horns are the germanic/rotory equivalents of 6/4 BAT's - The big Cerveny (601), Alexander (164), MW Fafner, Fastolt (why are these 5/4 on the MW website?), Mira 190, Seigried- Fit in here.

I'd put the Tuono, Alex 163, Mira 188, Bruckner in the 5/4 territory, even though these have large bores.

[Steve Marcus]

MW Fafner, Fastolt (why are these 5/4 on the MW website?)

Because their 6/4 BBb Kaiser tubas would be the models 197 and 198. The models that you list are the 195 and 196.

[bort]

Cool B&F, but what's going on with that linkage?

That's the new folding 'travel linkage'.

Neat!

Seems a bit ironic on such a gigantic tuba, but I guess every little bit helps!

[bort]

Some manufactures market their Kaiser rotary horns as big as 0.81" bore, but I'd personnaly save that distinction instruments in the 0.83 or greater territory. Kaiser horns are the germanic/rotory equivalents of 6/4 BAT's - The big Cerveny (601), Alexander (164), MW Fafner, Fastolt (why are these 5/4 on the MW website?), Mira 190, Seigried- Fit in here.

I'd put the Tuono, Alex 163, Mira 188, Bruckner in the 5/4 territory, even though these have large bores.

Kaisertubas are typically very tall as well, much taller than the 4/4 or 5/4 tubas by the same manufacturer. Seems like piston BATs are much bigger tubas, but not always a lot taller. I think it has to do with the bore and wrap of the tuba.

[bort]

This photo is a cool representation of the different sized Miraphones:



http://www.daveamason.com/mirafone/cctubas.html

[toobagrowl]

@ bigtubby:

Welcome to the Kaisertuba club
I'd definitely say your "Munster" tuba is a Kaiser. You gotta look at the overall horn, not just bore size. Even though the .760" bore is smaller than most Kaisers, everything else looks very 'Kaiser' to me - the large size, being rotary-valved (a requirement for Kaisers), height, being a contrabass, etc. Besides, you stated that your 3rd & 4th valves have bores well into the .800"s, so it seems your tuba is dual-bore or graduated bore.

As stated before, classic Kaisertubas are the Cerveny 601, Alex 164, M-W 197, Miraphone 190, and many old German/Czech tubas like yours. All are basically 5/4+, 6/4 size contrabass (BBb or CC) rotary-valved tubas. They are maybe not as fat-bodied as the American 5/4 & 6/4 BAT's, but they tend to be taller and with larger bores.

Btw, it's nice to see that old Shuster tuba being resurrected Several of us were yapping about it back when it was on eBay.

[Reptilian]

Some manufactures market their Kaiser rotary horns as big as 0.81" bore, but I'd personnaly save that distinction instruments in the 0.83 or greater territory. Kaiser horns are the germanic/rotory equivalents of 6/4 BAT's - The big Cerveny (601), Alexander (164), MW Fafner, Fastolt (why are these 5/4 on the MW website?), Mira 190, Seigried- Fit in here.

I'd put the Tuono, Alex 163, Mira 188, Bruckner in the 5/4 territory, even though these have large bores.

What keeps the Miraphone 191 out of this category? is it the compact wrap, or because it's essentially a rotor version of a more American style?

[Lee Stofer]

My take on it is that a "Kaiser-tuba" is simply stated, a King-sized tuba. So, anything that is larger overall than a Mirafone 186 or it's Amati or B & S equivalent, could arguably be called a kaiser tuba, whether 5/4 or 6/4 . Bore size is not necessarily the common denominator, as I recently sold a Huettl kaiser tuba that, although it had a quite large and tall body, had a .747" bore.

Dan Schultz was looking for a cool horn to restore, and I sold the J. Loew, Muenster tuba to him. So, I have seen it in person and have played it, and would say that the body size, particularly bottom bow and bell throat, as well as a generous bore size, should quality this horn as a kaiser tuba. Also, the dark, Alexander-esque tone quality says that this is not just another 4/4 BBb.

By the way, I'd like to commend Dan for doing some great work on the Muenster tuba, restoring it to it's former grandeur. I wish that there was more information available about the maker. The horn has a really nice sound, good intonation, a unique wrap, and valves that are reminiscent of the rotors in the old Sander, Kaiserslautern CC tuba I restored, which was one of Fred Geib's tubas.

[imperialbari]

http://www.gronitztuba.de/index.php?id=15

http://www.gronitztuba.de/index.php?id=17

Gronitz even name their largest piston tubas Kaisers.

Klaus

[bigtubby]

@ bigtubby:

Welcome to the Kaisertuba club
I'd definitely say your "Munster" tuba is a Kaiser. You gotta look at the overall horn, not just bore size. Even though the .760" bore is smaller than most Kaisers, everything else looks very 'Kaiser' to me - the large size, being rotary-valved (a requirement for Kaisers), height, being a contrabass, etc. Besides, you stated that your 3rd & 4th valves have bores well into the .800"s, so it seems your tuba is dual-bore or graduated bore.

As stated before, classic Kaisertubas are the Cerveny 601, Alex 164, M-W 197, Miraphone 190, and many old German/Czech tubas like yours. All are basically 5/4+, 6/4 size contrabass (BBb or CC) rotary-valved tubas. They are maybe not as fat-bodied as the American 5/4 & 6/4 BAT's, but they tend to be taller and with larger bores.

Thanks! Unfortunately I haven't had much time since I got this but it is great - like a pipe organ, a truly large sound. While I haven't had the time to get a handle on the Low, it feels as if it might play almost as easily as the Amati in the photo I posted but with that huge sound.

Btw, it's nice to see that old Shuster tuba being resurrected Several of us were yapping about it back when it was on eBay.

The Schuster has become my favorite tuba. it plays very well and with a great timbre, really that perfect 3/4 tuba I was looking for. Most of my playing is "unplugged" with acoustic guitars and unamplified vocals. The Schuster allows a lot of flexibility within the volume ranges that make sense in this context - from nice round bass notes to overblown "NOLA" sorts of things without overpowering the other voices in the ensemble.

Many thanks to Dan Schultz for suggestions on dealing with the very weak bell on the Schuster: this evening I got some free time and have fixed one of the most worrisome problems: creases around the periphery of the bell ... much stronger now, thanks again Dan!