Chinese CC tubas

[Michael Bush]

We need a thread pinned to the top called "Chinese Tuba Debate." Every thread about it new or old could be merged into it. Then those who never get tired of it would know where to go to get their fix, and the rest of us would be free.

[Leto Cruise]

I have played the Jin Bao horns which are regarded as professional horns. I have issues with people who could build the horns here in America, keep the money in America. $7000 for a horn made in China! The guy selling these horns is making a good amount of money on these horns. It costs less than $1000 to make a Wessex tuba, so it should cost the same amount to make one of these horns.

Perhaps Mr. Richard Barth is paying the Chinese a higher wage to build the horns with better quality. Maybe he's treating them like he would an American worker? But I do see your point, and I apologize for the race comment.

[Leto Cruise]

... or b.) Has a personal problem against China

Again, so why did you willfully toss the race card? China is a communist nation.

I am not standing with or against anyone here in this thread. I am staying out of it. But to toss the race card in this is just a stupid thing to do. It makes me believe that you are the racist because it seems that you filter everything you come across through a racial lens. Bad form, sir. Reconsider what you wrote and maybe apologize to the guy. Just because you disagree with him does not give you the right to call him a bigot. That was prime scumbag behavior there.

EDIT: Glad to see you reconsidered your ill-chosen words. Good for you. Thanks. Peace.

First of all, I never "called" him a racist. I ASKED if perhaps he had a problem against the Chinese race. A guy who simply doesn't like Chinese instruments wouldn't constantly say such negative things, this was far beyond that. I'm not wrong to start questioning his motives when evidence could potentially point that way. But now I know why he did what he did and I apologize to him. And all is well. Please read the facts next time.

[Leto Cruise]

I do apologize for implying it may have been a race thing. The guy seemed to have a thing for ragging on the Chinese to an unusual degree. I do not feel that I was out of line for questioning his motives because I had exhausted most logical possibilities. I do not believe Missouri is racist. It just seemed like a personal issue.

[MackBrass]

I am against companies using cheap labor of other countries to make their pocketbooks grow. I don't care if it is China, India, Singapore, Brazil, or Afganistan. When you pay workers next to nothing, there are limited quality checks and they are worried about making the next instrument and 500 more that day.

I buy fair trade coffee products. Though they are more expensive, I know I am not supporting slave labor and paying people in other countries what they deserve. We could make these tubas in America and sell them at the same costs. Jim Laabs would not be able swim in his profits. Same thing with iPhones. Steve Jobs would have had to downgrade his luxury car fleet by a couple Mercedes if he had his products made in America. I have not seen a Chinese car that is a major contender on the US market. There probably is a reason behind that.

It is amazing to see a member who has been on this board for only a few months and has almost 300 posts. With the time and effort you are putting in here, don't you think you could use your time in a different way instead of being some kind of know-it-all of the tuba community? What is your intention for this board?

By the way, you need to take a deeper look at all the products you have purchased in your life and what you currently own, I bet most are made in China. That American car you drive, do you think all the parts are made here?

Get a grip on reality, you act as if Tubas are the only thing that China makes for the USA. You have made your point, you don't like them. All I can say is, I bet you probably would have said the same thing about Yamaha, 30 years ago as most of us who are old enough did.

Let history be your guide, the stuff being made is China is the Yamaha of yesterday. These horns are here to stay and will only get better, the bad designs will go away and the good ones (there are plenty of them) will stay. Most people dont know this, but, there are a few companies in China that have been making brass instruments for a very long time and probably has been making most of the parts and pieces for all the major brands that most us have played or continue to play.

If you want to make a change, start your own company and make a difference.

[tofu]

Steve Jobs would have had to downgrade his luxury car fleet by a couple Mercedes if he had his products made in America.

Jobs lived very simply for a billionaire. His father was a car mechanic. Jobs liked precision built things including cars. He drove a Porsche 911. Jobs tried to build in America. To get the costs down to a competitive level with the S. Koreans he had to go to China. Times change - costs change - production moves around - it always has. The English in the late 19th century complained about the low cost American production. There are lots of moving parts in the decision of where to produce. Currency, cost of capital, labor wage, labor skill set, environmental costs, transportation costs, raw material costs/availability, political regs/costs, legal system, how bound you are by unions both by costs and work rules, cost of current capital equipment that can be operated with fewer but more highly skilled/compensated workers, what capital equipment might be available in a 5-10 year horizon, stability of country political system, the ability to repatriate profits, how much control do you have of your operation in given country, do you have to have a native to that country partner, and how much of your intellectual property do you have to share/give up. And there are other things you have to take into consideration/balance. It is not a decision a company makes lightly or easily and without considering all the ramifications. Where you produce is not a black or white decision - but in reality many shades of grey.

I have not seen a Chinese car that is a major contender on the US market. There probably is a reason behind that.

That is only a matter of time. People laughed off the Japanese and then they threw in the towel on the Koreans. Funny nobody laughs off the Koreans now. Do you know that Buick sold 400,000 Buicks in China last year and only 100,000 in the US? And guess what - Buick is now incorporating Chinese preferences into future product - and why wouldn't you when it just makes sense to build what they want where they show they want it by buying it.

[Lectron]

It's safe to say that Missouri keeps bashing every tuba coming from China.
Instruments he has no 1st hand information about.

If he did the to an American or German instrument, he would still act like a @@@@@.

I do not fancy those Chinese instruments either, and probably for the same reasons (tho less paranoid),
but that rather primitive 'fear the commies' behavior should belong to a sub forum in a sub forum in politics

That said. It is a problem not having a negative pole to that 'join us in the Chinese tuba heaven' clan

[Leto Cruise]

-

[Euphtub]

Most people dont know this, but, there are a few companies in China that have been making brass instruments for a very long time and probably has been making most of the parts and pieces for all the major brands that most us have played or continue to play.

This comment has been seen here before. Maybe some specifics would clear things up.

Regarding "all the major brands", can you please be specific and explain exactly which non-Chinese companies have had most of their parts and pieces made in China for a very long time and which of their tubas and euphoniums have been, unknown to the consumers, made from Chinese parts?

In other words...


Specifically, which major brands have been procuring most of the parts and pieces for their tubas and euphoniums from China for a very long time?

A little light shined on "all the major brands" would good for the end consumer.

Thanks in advance.

Didn't Besson set up their shop in China several years ago? Or Thailand? Anybody remember that? I seem to recall Besson moving operations from the UK and then the plating company selling off 4 or 5 Besson tubas unmarked and in raw brass ridiculously cheap. We're those events unrelated?

[Lectron]

Didn't Besson set up their shop in China several years ago? Or Thailand? Anybody remember that? I seem to recall Besson moving operations from the UK and then the plating company selling off 4 or 5 Besson tubas unmarked and in raw brass ridiculously cheap. We're those events unrelated?

I believe that was when Besson moved from one Euro plce to another Euro place.
The tubings where 100% besson...Or what used to be Besson, and assembled (and plated if wanting too) by fh lambert (good people)

As for them having an Asian plant, yes they do...For the 1000 series etc.
Was that one in India? Really can't remember

Edit:
Well there it is. Besson India

[Lectron]

I have played the Jin Bao CC (same as the Wessex, schiller, Mack, M&M). Calling it a clone or professional model is far from true. It might be partially based on a 186 but is not the same horn.

That's actually the better one

My issues are people like CLDMusic and Mack and King2ba trying to say they are professional model tubas and they play the same as the original or better than what they are based off of for a fraction of the price.

That I agree upon. And that IS a problem.

But there is a political issue too. And no. Not them being commies.
It is a country, despite it being huge, where you can find close to no working culture
and they simply do not follow the same rules that apply to other actors in the business.

But...Things seems to be moving in the right direction in many important areas. And pretty fast too.

[Ian1]

I use them professionally. Blow great to be honest.

I wouldn't risk my reputation if I didn't believe that 100%.

[Lectron]

I use them professionally. Blow great to be honest.

I wouldn't risk my reputation if I didn't believe that 100%.

That is very professional statement from a professional sponsored by Wessex.

Beside from some of them them sounding very decent....

Valve caps threads (local repairman just got send 50. Diameter vary by 1/2 mm)
Nylon guides with metal insert (sticking out)
Bad prep work before plating (no 'mirror' result). Metal sheet it selves seems uneven in thickness.
Poor felt on valves.
Non reversible tuning sides on what is to be same bore
Increased number of ferrules compared to original -> less challenging production

Just a few of my observations.

Please. These are 1st hand observations and hard facts. And I could go on.

[Ian1]

Not at all - my opinion as a player.

My Sovereign was also great, so was my Yamaha Maestro and my B&S PT-20. In fact I also liked the new Sovereign 984 that was sent to me to try.

All of them good instruments.

[Lectron]

Not at all - my opinion as a player.

How an instrument is build has got nothing to do with opinions. It's hardly subjective.

How it plays on the other hand might be.

[sousaphone68]

I have played the Jin Bao CC (same as the Wessex, schiller, Mack, M&M). Calling it a clone or professional model is far from true. It might be partially based on a 186 but is not the same horn.

My issues are people like CLDMusic and Mack and King2ba trying to say they are professional model tubas and they play the same as the original or better than what they are based off of for a fraction of the price.

I have no argument with personal opinion being expressed, especially when backed up by direct experience.

My only problem with your post is that of the three people you name only one of them to the best of my knowledge has publicly and repeatedly stated that he believes his tubas to be equal or better than the originals.

The other two are just members you seem to have a personal problem with.

[tclements]

I just got, for one of my students, a Hirsbrunner HB 2 copy. For what they paid, it was a pretty good tuba. As always, you get what you pay for. But with the cost of tubas getting into the five figure range, some people just cannot afford the price tag. This is a way for a young person to get a good (not a great, and maybe not even an excellent) tuba at a reasonable price.

[EdFirth]

Then don't. I don't thinl anyone on here really gives a flip what you do OR think.Ed Firth

[Ian1]

Missouri (whoever you may be) missed me saying ALL the tubas I've played are good.

I am not paid to say anything at all - I have my own mind!

[sousaphone68]

Missouri wrote
What started this hatred is the guy doing his thesis trying to prove these tubas are better than the ones they are modeled after

These kind of statements make it very hard to read your posts on this subject or any subject dispassionately I think you should reveal all of the reasons for your "hatred" so we can understand your posts better.