Can a flat rim be a crutch?

[chronolith]

I generally play on a flat Helleberg style rim. Does the extra surface contact on your face allow you to "cheat" the corners of your mouth and compensate for a possible lack of control and firmness? Am I kidding myself by thinking that a flatter rim is just better for me when I could actually just be allowing myself to be lazy?

I know everybody's embouchures are different and that different rim selections allow us to choose what is most comfortable, but I am putting that aside for this.

[wonderbread403]

I don't know if a flat rim is a crutch. More importantly is: Why care if it's a crutch or not?

If you're satisfied with how you feel, play, and sound, then keep the flat rim. I've heard of plenty of players--amateur and pro--explain why they like their choice of rims. I've heard flat rims are better for articulation and round rims for endurance (I think this is why Jim Self prefers a rounded rim...for the long studio sessions). Aren't those explanations kind of "crutches" too? You're the one playing. Do what feels right.

[Eric B]

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Plenty of professionals use Helleberg. They also play on the finest tubas. I wouldn't call that a crutch, I would call it sensible. Experiment with different mouthpieces for different applications.

[chronolith]

Don't cruches help people with bad legs get around ?
What's wrong with that ?

Well that's just it. I would not as a player want to hobble around on a crutch forever. I want my leg to get better if it can.

I am not really referring to my own playing (at least I don't think I am), nor am I attempting to assail the flat rim as a viable option. As I mentioned, I know everyone's face is different already. I am asking if the situation is possible and have people had to deal with this if a bad embouchure habit is identified.

[Bob Kolada]

I don't mind a flat-ish rim but I gotta have a rounded edge; sharp edges are too obvious while playing. I don't see the issue.

[ScottM]

The flattest rim I have ever used or encountered is a Neill Sanders tuba mouthpiece. I used it for a while but ultimately decided I wanted a more round rim as I felt I lost some clarity and the low range was really hard to make speak. It did require you to really reduce the amount of pressure used. It did have the advantage of being the most in tune mouthpiece of any I ever used on a MIRAFONE 184. It was an inverse lay so the rim tilted very slightly into the mouthpiece. He had a line of mouthpieces for all the brass instruments and at one time David Hickman played on a Sanders trumpet mouthpiece. Sanders was a Hornist with London Symphony and played a number of recordings with Dennis Brain. He founded the Melos ensemble and ended his career at Western Michigan University. I don't know that they are being made at this time. His horn mouthpieces were more popular than the rest of the line.
ScottM

[ScottM]

Sorry for the double post

[DaTweeka]

It comes down to this; every horn and mouthpiece you pick up is going to be a workaround. It's going to make some things easier for you. For this reason, I value a horn that's as neutral as possible, but that's another thing entirely. I think that right now, you may be doubting how you're approaching something, of the use of this mouthpiece is making you knitpick, and at some point you need to just say; this is my gear. It's what feels right right now, and I'm going to make the best of it. And then practice. A lot. End of story.

[Jess Haney]

eek!

As one of the rim choices that I offer is "flat", I can easily be treading on thin ice...(so here goes! )

One-in-particular very faithful-so-far user of my mouthpieces uses a very flat rim that I supply to him.

I've bought a ticket (ie. "paid dough") to hear him play...He doesn't need a crutch.

PERSONALLY, I find that a flat rim tends to "lock down" the mouthpiece position which (again: for ME) causes problems in the midst of huge/sudden range shifts.

Obviously, Mr. X (extraordinarily fine high-profile player - who just recently picked up yet another nice little part-time gig) doesn't experience these issues, or (perhaps?) has other work-arounds.

Generally, there are SO MANY people who use flat rims, there is obviously some work-around that I haven't personally discovered.

As far as "supporting corners", naw...I don't think any rim helps with that. If corners aren't "supported" by muscles, a "mouthpiece-rim-as-a-doorstop" doesn't really stop "chops-blowout".


bloke "I personally need a rim that - during fast range shifts - slides across the indention above the chin/below the bottom lip without causing rawness or blisters."

I just bought one of Bloke's flat rims and I love it. I dont feel it is a crutch at all or that I really gained any security in the corners over a very similar rim that was more rounded. I will mention that for myself I found it very comfortable the minute I put it on my face. I think the rim choice is really for comfort not necissarily keeping control in my playing. I have a friend that playes on a CKB and it has a gigantic, wide, flat rim. He has trouble with keeping his corners together for long periods and he really prefers that rim especially for playing low like this . To each his own. why do trumpet players buy shallow pieces for lead parts in jazz. Because it works and they can last longer.

[Steve Marcus]

To each his own. why do trumpet players buy shallow pieces for lead parts in jazz. Because it works and they can last longer.

There's a colleague in a brass ensemble who, when noticing that I change mouthpieces to a more shallow cup for a lighter/higher composition to be performed, has said, "Oh, so you're gonna use the 'cheater.'"
I never thought of switching equipment as "cheating," whether it's inserting a mouthpiece with a more shallow cup or selecting a mouthpiece with a flat rim. Is there any justification for calling that "cheating?"