OLD Sander CC

[Heavy_Metal]

with string-action rotors:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CC-Tuba-4-rotar ... 19ddf08f22" target="_blank

[bort]

Cool! Anyone know about how big it is? Bell, bore, height...?

[Sam Gnagey]

Cool! Anyone know about how big it is? Bell, bore, height...?

I don't know those details. Overall size is about like a Miraphone 184 but more compact. I do know that most of these horns have a 4th valve that produces a 2-3 combination rather than the 1-3 we're all used to.

[TheHatTuba]

Cool! Anyone know about how big it is? Bell, bore, height...?

I don't know those details. Overall size is about like a Miraphone 184 but more compact. I do know that most of these horns have a 4th valve that produces a 2-3 combination rather than the 1-3 we're all used to.

184? Weren't the Marzan horns based on these?

[Sam Gnagey]

Cool! Anyone know about how big it is? Bell, bore, height...?

I don't know those details. Overall size is about like a Miraphone 184 but more compact. I do know that most of these horns have a 4th valve that produces a 2-3 combination rather than the 1-3 we're all used to.

184? Weren't the Marzan horns based on these?

Having owned both large and small Marzan models at one time and played this model Sander, I know that this is not the Sander model that Fred Marzan copied.
Although you are right. He did use a larger and rarer Sander model as a prototype. It is a beautiful instrument made mostly of red brass with diagonally placed rotors.

[bort]

The seller told me the bell is 18" and the height is 34". They didn't know the bore.

[jeopardymaster]

This looks a lot like Sam Green's horn minus the 5th valve (which was equivalent to a modern 4th valve). As I recall, the footprint of Sam's instrument would compare to the smaller Amati/Cerveny CCs such as what Walter Sear used to import (closest modern version, I think, is called a 686), but a bit more compact overall with a deeper throat and maybe a slightly bigger bell. Sam's horn played REALLY big considering how compact it was. Fred Marzan's copper horn played quite a bit smaller, from what I could tell - I played both, but with about 25 years between samplings. Tom Coffey posts here sometimes and had Sam's horn, last time I checked. Maybe he can verify from measuring Sam's instrument.

[Tom Coffey]

I just saw this. This horn looks a lot like Sam's, but I don't think Sam's bell is that big. I will try to measure tonight. It is wound more compactly than a 184 or 686, because the bell stack is not quite as tall. It has a very large bore--I think about 830. It takes a lot of air and can be played at very loud volume levels with no distortion. Of all the people I ever heard play the horn (including me) no one has ever produced as much sound as Sam did. He was perfectly matched to the horn, almost like Arnold Jacobs and the York.
Sam used this horn nearly exclusively during his 35 years with the Cincinnati Symphony, even for things almost always played on F tuba today. He brought it with him when he arrived by train from New York in 1943. One of the first things he played on it that season was the world premier of Fanfare for the Common Man, with Aaron Copeland (who had been commissioned by the Cincinnati Symphony to write a fanfare in support of the war effort) conducting.
On Sam's tuba, the fourth valve is equal to 2 and 3 instead of 1 and 3 as is more common today. The string rotors are very fast and dependable. Sam bought the horn from Fred Geib, who had purchased it from August Helleberg. Mr. Helleberg had a hand in importing these from Germany. Mr. Geib was using the horn himself when Sam persuaded him to sell it. I have the honor of being the fourth owner, after Mr. Helleberg, Fred Geib, and Sam.

[Sam Gnagey]

This one went to a "Sam" too.

[Tom Coffey]

This one went to a "Sam" too.

Congratulations, Sam. Sander was a real craftsman, and these are great horns!

[Tom Coffey]

I measured Sam's horn last night. It stands 35 and a half inches tall, and has a 16.5 inch bell diameter. I did not weigh it, bit it is lighter than my Cerveny Piggy.

[Sam Gnagey]

I've been fascinated by these horns since I had a chance to play on Bob Woodbury's. That was back in the 1960s when he was a student of Mr. Green's at CCM. I've lost track of Bob. I wonder if he still has that Sander? I also wonder how many of them are in existence?

[Tom Coffey]

I don't know Bob, but have heard his name many times. I share the fascination with the horns. Sander had some connection to the Sousa Band, probably through Mr. Helleberg. He was commissioned to build a CCC tuba, which they used on at least one tour. I played on one of the two CCs in the Tuba Exchange collection, and thought it was good, but not as good as Sam's. I know of one in Eb, which is under repair right now. It looks a lot like Sam's, but smaller, naturally. Most of them have a fair amount of nickel or silver trim, thoughtfully put where the horn was most likely to wear, such as on the bell stack where the player's right hand rests, on the bottom bow guard, and sometimes, but not always, on the valve tubing. Sam had a travel trunk made in New York, which fits the horn and has room for a tuxedo, accessories, and a compartment for a bottle of booze! This was very heavy and unpopular with the stage hands, but it provided good protection for the horn.

[J.c. Sherman]

This one went to a "Sam" too.

Congratulations, Sam. Sander was a real craftsman, and these are great horns!

+1!