Unknown Maker

[bigtubby]

So I bought this thinking (crappy cell phone photos) that it was a Cerveny stencil. When it arrived I became fairly certain that it isn't Cerveny.

Some crappy cell phone photos of what I see as non-Cerveny bits follow, does anyone know who built this? Pretty sure it was built some time in the 1950's or 1960's.






Any input greatly appreciated.

[Heavy_Metal]

Something tells me it's older than you say. I couldn't make out the name, can you tell us what it is?

[imperialbari]

Yes, easily could be pre-WWII.

Full front and rear views plus readable shots of all engravings might be helpful in telling the ID.

Klaus

[Ben]

A picture of the bell wreath and also water key would be enlightening. I agree it looks German. I have seen a thumb ring very similar to that on Wade Rackley's Alex 163. The brace that holds the leadpipe to the bell also looks very Alexander, along with EDIT - BUT NOT the harness ring in that image. Some of the detailing on the ferules and bracing is throwing me off, most likely probably not a vintage thing.

Where's the strike through feature when you need it.

[bigtubby]

Sorry I left out the reason I thought it was mid-20th Century. The name wiggle engraved on the bell is "La Sete" which seems to be a stencil used by a SoCal music dealer around that time. I thought that perhaps they had recycled an older name but don't find it in my The New Langwill Index which is generally quite comprehensive.

Clock springs dating a tuba? I own an Amati with clock springs that couldn't be earlier than 17 October 1945 by definition. In fact I think that it isn't older than the 1970's or 1980's due to the miniball linkage.

Thanks for the input, will try to post some better photos shortly.

[NCSUSousa]

I can't help date the Tuba in question, but it's worth noting that people who like the feel of clocksprings have harvested them off of older tubas and fit them onto their horns.
The reverse is true for Miniball linkages - people who have old horns, but want to improve the feel of the valves by removing the old style 'S' linkage will replace it with a modern linkage.

My point - You can't trust either one as an accurate dating method by itself. Especially if you find a horn with both miniballs and clocksprings. Then you know something has been changed.

[bigtubby]

I can't help date the Tuba in question, but it's worth noting that people who like the feel of clocksprings have harvested them off of older tubas and fit them onto their horns.
The reverse is true for Miniball linkages - people who have old horns, but want to improve the feel of the valves by removing the old style 'S' linkage will replace it with a modern linkage.

My point - You can't trust either one as an accurate dating method by itself. Especially if you find a horn with both miniballs and clocksprings. Then you know something has been changed.

While I absolutely agree (and I should have mentioned this), the Amati in question is almost certainly all original. It is in surprisingly good condition with no indications of having been restored. When I bought it almost looked NOS - or purchased, very seldom played and stored in its case. I've also seen many images on the web of this exact configuration, mostly in Europe.

With all of that said, I am not certain of the Amati's provenance and suggestions are welcome from those more knowledgeable than I. The reason that I feel it hasn't been restored is the fact that the etching on the bell is very crisp - one of the first things to suffer from the buffer. FWIW I've done instrument repair work off and on since the 1970's and so have seen quite a few horns; this one just looks and feels all original to me.

The Amati in question is in the middle of this lineup:

[bigtubby]

Photos of the tuba in question in my OP.

4th valve wrap is different from the Cerveny *81 series tubas. I thought it was one of these from original photos and the fact that they supplied so many stencils. It is almost exactly the same dimensions as an older Cerveny 681, 39" from bell to tip of keel. Bell a touch bigger, 16.75" instead of 15.75". Bore is a touch smaller, 19.6mm instead of 20.2mm.

Overall the construction details seem to me more like the 19th Century tubas I own. The keel is quite similar to the one on the J. Low and that cast mouthpipe brace for some reason looks old (like 19th C. gun parts). The one part that gives the appearance of having been replaced is the bridge and of course the paddle mechanisms could have been as well.

The spring housings and paddles look more modern, housings look a lot like those on my Amati and the paddles are somewhat sculpted as opposed to the flat, very thin paddles on my older horns. Water key pivot is all stamped, looks original in that it is nickle silver and matches stylistically.

Unless the bell has been replaced, the stencil seems to be (at my low level of knowledge anyway) the one real earmark.

Edit: Meant to mention that it was lacquered at one time but about 99% raw brass now.

[imperialbari]

The engraving style reminds me of Weltklang, the 2nd line from B&S. But then the flanges definitely are not from B&S.

Klaus

[bort]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56070" target="_blank

[TubaSailor]

This may be an early Gronitz - the thumb ring, ferrules, valve paddles and linkage, bell garland, water valve, keel, and some of the bracing, is identical to the BBb Kaiser I have.

[royjohn]

There's a recent thread here on La Sete tubas and evidently Keilworth used this name on several trumpets. In the link provided in the thread from May of this year, I didn't see any tubas. . .a little research might turn up something more, but it's probably a Keilworth product.

How does it play?

[bigtubby]

There's a recent thread here on La Sete tubas and evidently Keilworth used this name on several trumpets. In the link provided in the thread from May of this year, I didn't see any tubas. . .a little research might turn up something more, but it's probably a Keilworth product.

How does it play?

From what I have been able to find, the name was used by a music store in Southern Cali with references to the "Barthold brothers" and also a reference to Splevins Music Center, I am not sure if these are related or accurate. Typically in this situation the instruments would be purchased from a manufacturer who offered the quality and price required for a given instrument. Where I've seen references to Keilwerth has been trumpets. However since The New Langwill Index states "specializing in saxophones" and makes no mention of brass, the trumpet references seem off track. Keilwerth was based in Kraslice but the shop was only in business from 1920 - 1945, when it was probably absorbed by Amati.

My original assumption was that this tuba was supplied by Amati (Cerveny) because they were a huge supplier of stencil tubas as well as other instruments in the States. Physical inspection tells me otherwise. I agree with the majority here that it appears to be of German origin but there seems to be a lot of similarity in instruments built around the Czech border between Markneukirchen and Kraslice.

While it still needs a lot of work, I have it in playable enough condition to see that its voice will be very nice - quite similar to the Cerveny 481/681. I would like to play it against a 686 because the bell makes it closer dimensionally but alas I don't have access to one.

Edit
Just found a wikipedia article which states that Julius Keilwerth moved the headquarters to Nauheim, Germany but that the Kraslice manufactory remained a part of Amati, again all saxophone centered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Keilwerth

[imperialbari]

http://www.julius-keilwerth.com/en/saga/our-history

There is a horrible sample of history falsifying in the company saga. Germans were thrown out of Czechoslovakia after WWII, not in 1939. The so called Sudetendeutsche have a lot of self pity, but they just should remember how the nazi occupants had treated the Czech and Slovak populations.

The West German Keilwerth company made trumpets and trombones aside of saxes. But I don't remember ever seeing a rotary tuba from that company.

If the owners of the La Sete Brand used more than one source for their stenciled instruments, then that would be a quite normal pattern.

Klaus

[J.c. Sherman]

With some very minor deviations (almost none), it sure looks like a Markneukirchen make to me... very Mirafone-y.

J.c.S.

[ger]

The West German Keilwerth company made trumpets and trombones aside of saxes. But I don't remember ever seeing a rotary tuba from that company.

If the owners of the La Sete Brand used more than one source for their stenciled instruments, then that would be a quite normal pattern.

I agree. Here's all about Keilwerth brass instruments: http://marge.home.xs4all.nl/Keilwerth.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank
Trumpets, cornets, flugelhorns, trombones, but no tuba's. And no rotary valves whatsoever.

[imperialbari]

With some very minor deviations (almost none), it sure looks like a Markneukirchen make to me... very Mirafone-y.

J.c.S.

Sorry, is this statement a very advanced joke or is it an outstanding highlight of nonsense?

Mira, if -fone or -phone, never came out of Markneukirchen. Miraphone started as collective workshop of German speaking brass makers thrown out of Czechoslovakia after WWII. The Germans in pre-WWII Czechoslovakia were Catholics. The Protestant Germans had been thrown out much earlier, before 1800. They went to Saxony, where the Markgraf, the elector prince, gave them a new church right north of the border around which the village of Markneukirchen (the village around the new church by the Mark) grew. The post-WWII Sudeten-exodians went to Bavaria, because it is a Catholic stronghold.

Absorbing fugitives is a tough task even if they speak your national language. Nazi war production of a specific type of powder had been located in a remote non-populated place called Kraiburg in southeast Bavaria. The available infrastructure was recycled as the foundation of an artificial village, Waldkraiburg, for the Sudetendeutsche. Artificial because it wasn't grown out of a local economic structure. Experienced map readers can see which towns were founded on royal/state command and which are fulfilling the structural needs of a region.

So mentioning Markneukirchen and Miraphone as expressing the same thing is a joke or it is distilled nonsense.

I will not exclude the La Sete being made by Miraphone, but to me it doesn't look like one either. And aside of the -fone/-phone thing Mira never was famous for making stencil instruments, whereas the GDR-era Markneukirchen makers would put any name on any instrument that could be sold for western currencies.

But then the La Sete doesn't look like something out of Markneukirchen either.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Don a telly?

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Man! tough call on this one. Part of me wants to say post WWII, but then again, something tells me pre war Bohland and Fuchs (sans sheild flanges).

Interesting info Klaus, thanks!

Clock spring build is nice and looks like some of the high end stuff made by Mirafone clear into the 90s.

Probably 1950s, early product of Mirafone (maybe?), imported and engraved after the fact? mostly speculation, I got nothing

Daniel C. Oberloh

[imperialbari]

Dan's posting had me look at B&F instruments in my galleries. I found no direct matches to the La Sete, but an Eb tuba engraved Amati as well as B&F revealed that the horseshoe stoppers of same type as the Las Sete were used in Amati instruments, where Amati by definition is post-WWII.

The engraving is elaborate, but the lines are crude. Probably the fastest way of covering the open areas in a template. An operation that could have happened at the importer's shop.

Horn-u-copia has a page on Bohland & Fuchs:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/Reference/d ... thisrec=43

Clearly written by a non-German speaker, but quite good. Underplaying that the Sudetendeutsche were forced out after WWII. A more detailed telling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenlan ... rld_War_II

One maker, Johann Michl of Graslitz, is the only one I have seen who marked instruments made between 1938 and 1945 as made in Sudetengau. Gau was a term for a region within the nazi administrative system.

When did the La Sete stencil brand operate? If right after WWII, then this tuba may have been assembled from parts and fittings from the various makers forced into Amati. Making it very hard to give a definite ID.

Klaus