Edgy (Marching Band) Sousaphone Sound

[Mark]

You can roll a turd in sugar all you want... Doesn't make it a doughnut.

If it sounds unmusical... you're not playing music well, NO MATTER the GENRE. I make money playing orchestral music, jazz, contemporary rock, classic rock. I used to play in drum corps and lemme tell you... I can play damn loud. I can deafen a bass section if I really put my mind to it. I don't. I refuse to let people think that sounding like crap is desirable and I wish more musicians (amateur or professional alike) would take a good OBJECTIVE look at what they're presenting to the public on our instruments. The reason we THINK the audience wants us to sound that way is because we haven't given them the option. Why is it so easy to impress an audience with a few eighth notes? Because the players before you didn't give your audience a good example from which to draw their opinion.

Guess what. Even the most unenlightened layperson would prefer a loud sousaphone player with a concept of sound that is controlled and rich with overtones over a sousa player who chooses to overdo it and play "blatty". I can play with an edge while controlling my horn... can you? No? Then back to the practice room and practice loud playing kid! Geez...

Lemme paraphrase the arguments I'm hearing:

"I can only play loudly with a lack of control. Therefore, in my opinion (oh gawd! The word opinion doesn't mean you have carte blanche to spread your fact diluting "information" guys...) , that sound should be desirable in some instances. Don't be ignorant! My band teacher says i should play crappy and the audience should like it! Don't judge me because I haven't practiced! The audience should decide (based on their inexperience with the sound of a sousaphone?) how I should sound... and obviously, they like my blatty, craptastic, low expectations of tone. Don't disregard my opinion just because it's based on misinformation, inexperience and/or nonsense!"

It's up to us, the players of our chosen instrument, to raise the bar and uphold standards. What would be an error (and would cheapen our efforts and our ART), is to be complacent with our weaknesses (admitted or not) and strive to make our instrument ever more respected. Strive for better, don't try and argue that inferior playing is preferred. If you prefer it... it's because you don't wanna sit down and play your goddam long tones.

If your argument is: "I admire better tone and I'm striving for it but haven't quite got there as I'm still young and/or inexperienced, so please don't judge me!" I can commiserate. In fact, that's a state of mind a musician should be in throughout his/her career... striving for better. If your argument is: "I'm cool with my tone now and I'm gonna kick up a fuss with those from whom I should be garnering advice and information, so screw off, I'm good ENOUGH! Some genres require bad players so that's my niche (and then go on to pass on cockeyed and complacent advice to their peers)," then please, please shush and help keep this forum a USEFUL resource for the rest of us.

(Have you noticed that so many of our heroes and idols who used to frequent this list haven't been heard from in ages? Ever wonder why? I don't.)

To summarize: The lack of hard work in the practice room is compensated for by an over abundance of misplaced machismo and bad musical taste.

[Toobist]

You can roll a turd in sugar all you want... Doesn't make it a doughnut....

I once ate 2-week old dog turds.

Was it your opinion that it tasted ideal for your particular tastes? Or were they what your conductor told you actually tastes good for a particular entree?

[royjohn]

Well, this has been an interesting thread for me, as I didn't know that whole groups of tuba players (about 43 in the FAMU clip) played in this style. I also didn't know that (maybe) it originated at HBCUs. I think for most tuba players, this type of playing would be another arrow in the quiver, but not one shot very often.

If you take the most refined, mellow tuba sound at one end and the edgiest, raunchiest tuba sound at the other, you have a continuum and can place various performance styles somewhere along it.

I listened to to all of the excerpts posted by Tubaboss2, our original poster. I found some to be decent, but others to not be very good music (you know, "if it sounds good, it is good"). Since some of this stuff is meant to be raunchy and to sound like a fart, it is hard to fault it for having that quality, but I personally have a limited tolerance for listening to farts. The guys in one clip are laughing at some points and that tells me they are aware that they are farting at us. Maybe funny, once.

In listening to the OP's clips, I was struck by how easy it is to go too far with this style. Edgy is one thing and thin is another. With a little mellowness mixed in, it makes its point without being too overbearing. The Jimmy Fallon clip in another poster's message is an example of this. There's some musicianship there and it sounds good. The edginess is part of the style, but it's not overwhelming

I think there is a place for this style and it might even create a market for more tuba performers. However, you need to remember that the thread was created by one high school student who evidently wants to take this style to the limit. The proverb says, "Beware of a young man who has just read a book". . .or discovered a new style on tuba. That this thread has carried on so long has to do with how many people don't really like this style, esp. when carried to extremes. Go back and look at how much of the six pages is devoted to the anti- view here.

I say that you sometimes can't get young people to listen to you. . .and really shouldn't try past a point. If this is what consumes this young person's energy at this point in time, let's encourage him to take his quest wherever it leads him. He'll learn something in the process. . .and possibly so will we, ultimately.

[Jay Bertolet]

I say that you sometimes can't get young people to listen to you. . .and really shouldn't try past a point.

Absolutely! I believe that point was reached before this thread was started. In my experience, there are two types of people that post on this BBS: folks posting legitimate questions in an honest pursuit of knowledge and those posting for other reasons. The most prevalent of the "other reasons" are the ones looking for validation of their viewpoints. Why feed that fire? Simply let them find their way. You can lead a horse to water...

[Tuboss2]

Well, I don't want to come off as stubborn. But this is something I have been looking into for a good while ill tell you. Honestly, I just want to perfect this style. I understand that this style is sometimes taken to far to instead of the sound is aggressive and edgy it's instead Blatty and thin. So, in a way to actually make a point to people that the HBCU sound doesn't have to be taken out of proportion: I want to get this type JUST right. So I ask you guys; how can do I that? There's such a fine line between edgy and Blatty I am not aware when I pass it. So I'd like help with that.

And another thing, listen to BCU (Bethune Cookman Unversity) Tuba Section. In my opinion I think they do it perfectly; not overly Blatty. But that's your opinion. If you want I'll link some vids from them.

[bigtubby]

I've learned a lot by watching this thread, always thought that this guy simply didn't know how to play. Now thinking that's how he wants to sound. And the guitar player seems to dig it so probably so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJXXnSICbUo

Some of you have probably guessed that I covet his tuba.

[bigtubby]

... Honestly, I just want to perfect this style. I understand that this style is sometimes taken to far to instead of the sound is aggressive and edgy it's instead Blatty and thin. So, in a way to actually make a point to people that the HBCU sound doesn't have to be taken out of proportion: I want to get this type JUST right. So I ask you guys; how can do I that? ...

Seems that you have come to the wrong church. That is a bit like asking a group of trained luthiers who love wooden acoustic guitars how to perfect the Ovation design.

[Tuboss2]

Brief update...during my practice time today, I tried playing with a different concept: Filling up the room I was in regardless of acoustics(I was in my bedroom and let me tell you it dead as f*** in there, hard to hear overtones and stuff like that). But with all that, I played with a goal of trying to fill up the room, and I'll tell you, I think I did pretty stinkin' good. Could really feel my instrument echo and all. Then I tried playing some jazzy basslines I have memorized with some edge with the main goal of finding the perfect amount without going over the line. I feel pretty good about how I did when I did. Really sounded full, almost bass guitar like. I'll be focusing more on those two aspects I worked and basically trying different things so I find out what works for me.

I do have one question, sound bounces of the wall correct? Because for some reason, I was messing around and I put my bell against the well and decided to play a few things, and goodness, it sounded fat as heck. Really thick and buoyant. So, it made me think, could I possibly get that same sound I got with my bell in front of the wall...who knows, going to keep working on it. Got any other advice on what I'm trying to do, please share.

And, check these videos out, I was trying to copy the type of sound that was being made by the tuba players in these vids, comment what you think about them and say if they sound good and what not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVHb3ooufI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffdxDCwaQ4g

[bigtubby]

Brief update...during my practice time today, I tried playing with a different concept: Filling up the room I was in regardless of acoustics(I was in my bedroom and let me tell you it dead as f*** in there, hard to hear overtones and stuff like that). But with all that, I played with a goal of trying to fill up the room, and I'll tell you, I think I did pretty stinkin' good. Could really feel my instrument echo and all. Then I tried playing some jazzy basslines I have memorized with some edge with the main goal of finding the perfect amount without going over the line. I feel pretty good about how I did when I did. Really sounded full, almost bass guitar like. I'll be focusing more on those two aspects I worked and basically trying different things so I find out what works for me.

I do have one question, sound bounces of the wall correct? Because for some reason, I was messing around and I put my bell against the well and decided to play a few things, and goodness, it sounded fat as heck. Really thick and buoyant. So, it made me think, could I possibly get that same sound I got with my bell in front of the wall...who knows, going to keep working on it. Got any other advice on what I'm trying to do, please share.

And, check these videos out, I was trying to copy the type of sound that was being made by the tuba players in these vids, comment what you think about them and say if they sound good and what not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVHb3ooufI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffdxDCwaQ4g

OK so maybe you are in the right church. I'm far from the best tubist here. More like the guy in the green jacket here (yeah I wish I was a shadow of Leonhard):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSx41Xm2PBQ&t=4m45s

But I love the Youngbloods. And in both of the videos you referenced, the sousa guys are doing precisely what you mentioned: filling the room.

Most of the negative comments in this thread deal with the "contrabass kazoo" sound. Both of the bass players you just mentioned are far from that. A bass is supposed to be BIG like a tuba/sousa. Not scrawny like a kazoo.

Edit:
BTW Mnozil brass is making a big spoof of it in the link I posted but if you want to know what "skill" means give them a listen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWfAUY9gjoQ

[Tuboss2]

The difference between these first guys (in the Youngblood BB) is that he plays his low notes with normal tone, tuning, and control.
This reminds me of Ron Caswell's work with the Slavic soul party. Pretty tasty.

This second song starts really beautifully and shows a picture of the guy with a microphone down his bell (I also like his low range)

You gotta remember that both of these recordings may have bin "genetically altered" after the recording. (I kind of doubt it though).

Mhhm. I doubt they were altered as well. I mean it sounds good and natural. But yes this what I'm going to try to work for. I want to have different types of sounds I can use for different types of music.

Also, as far as sounding like a kazoo...you see, I'll always be able to do that. Honking is in my blood fellas.

[Mark]

Brief update...during my practice time today, I tried playing with a different concept: Filling up the room I was in regardless of acoustics(I was in my bedroom and let me tell you it dead as f*** in there, hard to hear overtones and stuff like that). But with all that, I played with a goal of trying to fill up the room, and I'll tell you, I think I did pretty stinkin' good. Could really feel my instrument echo and all. Then I tried playing some jazzy basslines I have memorized with some edge with the main goal of finding the perfect amount without going over the line. I feel pretty good about how I did when I did. Really sounded full, almost bass guitar like. I'll be focusing more on those two aspects I worked and basically trying different things so I find out what works for me.

I do have one question, sound bounces of the wall correct? Because for some reason, I was messing around and I put my bell against the well and decided to play a few things, and goodness, it sounded fat as heck. Really thick and buoyant. So, it made me think, could I possibly get that same sound I got with my bell in front of the wall...who knows, going to keep working on it. Got any other advice on what I'm trying to do, please share.

And, check these videos out, I was trying to copy the type of sound that was being made by the tuba players in these vids, comment what you think about them and say if they sound good and what not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVHb3ooufI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffdxDCwaQ4g

These two guys sound good.

[Tubaryan12]

As an alumni of a HBCU, I'll weigh in.

This is a sound that is acutually done on purpose. For some strange and unknown reason, crowds like it....a lot. At the end of the day, music is entertainment. The crowd is entertained. I'm not a big fan of opera, but have no problem with those that like it. I've said this in a previous post on this board: There is nothing like marching into a stadium and having thousands of people chant for the tuba section. It's nice to have folks in the stands that can't wait until the tuba section plays one of their fanfares. It is one of the only times in most of our lives where a tuba player will feel like a rock star. Many may not like the sound.....but it is great to make that many people cheer and dance and sing along with you......not for the band as a whole...but just you and your section mates. Tuba players in other settings may never get to feel that. We got to do it for 10 Saturdays every year.

Tubaryan "makes me smile just to think about it again" 12
Tubafunk til I die

[Tuboss2]

As an alumni of a HBCU, I'll weigh in.

This is a sound that is acutually done on purpose. For some strange and unknown reason, crowds like it....a lot. At the end of the day, music is entertainment. The crowd is entertained. I'm not a big fan of opera, but have no problem with those that like it. I've said this in a previous post on this board: There is nothing like marching into a stadium and having thousands of people chant for the tuba section. It's nice to have folks in the stands that can't wait until the tuba section plays one of their fanfares. It is one of the only times in most of our lives where a tuba player will feel like a rock star. Many may not like the sound.....but it is great to make that many people cheer and dance and sing along with you......not for the band as a whole...but just you and your section mates. Tuba players in other settings may never get to feel that. We got to do it for 10 Saturdays every year.

Tubaryan "makes me smile just to think about it again" 12
Tubafunk til I die

Yes! Someone who actually likes this sound. It is a thrill indeed man. When people, espically girls are rocking out to your unorthodox playing. I mean, it's one of those things, you have to be a Tuba to understand this feeling. Now the type of sound isn't appropriate everywhere, I learned the hard way(a pretty harsh bashing from my director Infront of the whole class, quite embarrassing ill tell you that). But when I get to do it, I KILL IT. But right now I'm working on still cranking when I get the chance, and still sound good and fat/thick while doing it. Don't wanna sound like thin sheets of sound ya know, wanna make sure it's beefy and loud at the same time. Which is something I'm going to be working on a lot over this summer break.

[David Richoux]

I just got home from the Seattle Honk!Fest West - as usual there were many Sousaphone driven bands, all having a lot of fun.

While most of the players were loud and strong, there were others that were also doing unamplified "DJ scratching," harmolodics, and "beat-box" styles to great effect. The audiences were very appreciative of the skills shown by the players.

If you don't know about Honk!, the next big gathering will be in Boston this October. More at honkfest.org

[Untersatz]

But right now I'm working on still cranking when I get the chance, and still sound good and fat/thick while doing it. Don't wanna sound like thin sheets of sound ya know, wanna make sure it's beefy and loud at the same time. Which is something I'm going to be working on a lot over this summer break.

Good tone is good tone.........no matter how loud or how soft you play.
What you should be working on is playing with the best tone possible, that is when you sound "good"
Music is written with many dynamic levels and you MUST learn to play within those levels. Whether it be soft or
loud (or somewhere in between) that is how you must learn to play. If everyone in a band played at the same dynamic level all the time, the music would have no soul & sound dull & lifeless. If everyone in the band plays the dynamic levels as written, then the piece comes alive with many changes in the dynamics creating an enjoyable experience for both the audience & the performers. This can lead to a very happy conductor too

[Tubaryan12]

Yes! Someone who actually likes this sound. It is a thrill indeed man. When people, espically girls are rocking out to your unorthodox playing. I mean, it's one of those things, you have to be a Tuba to understand this feeling.

By Jove, I think he's got it. The girls rocking out to you is just bonus.

No matter who the artist is, your job is to please your audience. The band directors know what their audience wants to hear. The movie Drumline grossed over 56 million dollars domestically and turned a profit. The folks that like this buy the tickets to the games, and a lot leave right after halftime when the bands are done (shocking, I know). There is a time for classically trained sound. There is room for this too. You can do both.....you just have to know when. Most of those same band directors have no problem letting you know when it's not the right time to blat.

hell yeah, we were "puttin' it to 'em...and NOT THE LEAST concerned whether-or-not our sound was too "edgy"), the trumpets, the piccolos, the trombones, and the percussion.

Considering the source, nothing more needs to be said after that.

[Tuboss2]

But right now I'm working on still cranking when I get the chance, and still sound good and fat/thick while doing it. Don't wanna sound like thin sheets of sound ya know, wanna make sure it's beefy and loud at the same time. Which is something I'm going to be working on a lot over this summer break.

Good tone is good tone.........no matter how loud or how soft you play.
What you should be working on is playing with the best tone possible, that is when you sound "good"
Music is written with many dynamic levels and you MUST learn to play within those levels. Whether it be soft or
loud (or somewhere in between) that is how you must learn to play. If everyone in a band played at the same dynamic level all the time, the music would have no soul & sound dull & lifeless. If everyone in the band plays the dynamic levels as written, then the piece comes alive with many changes in the dynamics creating an enjoyable experience for both the audience & the performers. This can lead to a very happy conductor too

True true, but if the music says FFF as a dynamic marking for a certain phrase, 9/10 times I'm sure you know what happens.

Check this vid out fellas, critque this one for me because I think it's just right, but I'd like more opinions.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NqhcSvi2Zf8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mjvyJ2QM-8s&feature=related

[Untersatz]

True true, but if the music says FFF as a dynamic marking for a certain phrase, 9/10 times I'm sure you know what happens.

Check this vid out fellas, critque this one for me because I think it's just right, but I'd like more opinions.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NqhcSvi2Zf8" target="_blank" target="_blank
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mjvyJ2QM-8s&feature=related" target="_blank" target="_blank

The first video is still sounding like a bunch of kazoos! but the 2nd video sounds very nice & they are
actually playing in the bass range.............that is a good sousaphone sound.

I can play fff on either of my horns & I keep the tone pretty even (without sounding like a kazoo).
Heck, even my 3/4 tuba (which is actually pretty large for a 3/4) doesn't start sounding like a damn kazoo even at ffff.
It might start to "bark" a bit at ffff but it's a nice deep bark.

[GC]

Bethune-Cookman definitely does some interesting stuff.

[Untersatz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvfOnbxfziI" target="_blank

Heck, I didn't know you could measure sousaphone playing in "Horsepower"