To buy or not to buy.

[theatomizer13]

Hello Everyone,

So I am looking into buying a CC tuba, i have thrived thus far on school tubas and I am transferring from a jr college to a University. My future instructor encouraged me to buy a new tuba so that I wont have to keep "getting used" to new tubas. I dont think that is a problem, but i trust his judgment and it has also put a bug in my ear looking for a tuba of my own. The real problem is my budget (which will lead to a caviar taste on a ramen budget issue) The absolute most i could spend on a tuba is $3,000. (*insert poor college student story here). I want to be a band director and teacher. Therefore i really dont know how much time i would have or desire to practice after i get my degree. SO i was wondering if it would even be worth it to drop my small amount of money to get a tuba when the schools tubas are better.

Thanks in advance

[Untersatz]

So I am looking into buying a CC tuba

Do you have a preference on rotary or piston valves? What about size? 4/4 or 5/4? As Brian mentioned, there are several good Chinese clones that can be obtained for under $3,000. Unfortunately, not all of the Chinese made tubas are good instruments. I own a Miraphone 1291 BBb 5-valve clone purchased from Jim Laabs Music (Schiller) which for me is a wonderful horn & is a faithful copy of the 1291. However, the CC version of the 1291 clone has not had many favorable reviews.
And as a well respected member & sponsor here on tubenet said about the 1291 CC clone "I have no intention of ordering any more. The one I have is likely to remain the only of this tuba in the world with WESSEX on the bell!"
The 186 & the Hirsbrunner clones also seem to be well liked by those who have purchased them, but both of those are BBb horns.
I am not an advocate for Chinese made tubas, but if that is all you can afford, there ARE some decent ones out there.
There was a thread about a 1291 CC Clone not too long ago viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49504" target="_blank" target="_blank
But like many threads here on tubenet after a few replies it got derailed & turned into a pissing contest or debate over ethnic backgrounds, racism, Chinese manufacturing etc.

[Jay Bertolet]

Hello Everyone,

So I am looking into buying a CC tuba, ....

Since your stated goal is to be a music educator, why are you narrowing your tuba choices to CC tubas? I could understand if you were intending to become a performer (though even that distinction for CC tubas is quickly becoming less of a factor) but since many BBb tubas are just as good as their CC counterparts and since the BBb tubas are generally cheaper, you might be able to increase the bang for your buck by looking at BBb tubas as well. No disrespect intended, if you've tried CC tubas and decided you must have one that's understandable too. I'm just looking at a money tight situation that you've outlined and thinking that a BBb tuba price might be a bit more compatible with your needs. Especially in the used market, these horns can be every bit as good as new and cost way under your stated budget. Something to think about...

[ppalan]

+10000 to Bloke.
I am a graduate of a program that is almost precisely as he described. I couldn't agree with him any more. He is 100% on target. Even as students at the time, I think some of us realized that the curriculum was in need of modification. Coincidentally, there was a school that did exactly as Bloke suggested. If you were in music ed, it was a 5 year program and I think they were, overall better prepared for teaching then we were; musically and "edjukashun theoryally"

In answer to the OP's question, I would agree that shopping around is key.Try as many varieties of horn as you can and pick the one that works the best for you that is within your budget. Whether it's Chinese, German, Laplandic, or whatever.
Pete

[The Big Ben]

One personal opinion:

Learn to play the trumpet (or the clarinet) really well. Both instruments are very useful for demonstrating from the director's podium. Either can be kept on a stand with you and you can grab it up when needed and you can read the part off of the director's score. My HS director played clarinet. When he picked up that clarinet, pointed it at you and played your part with you, it really helped.

[pierso20]

As you may recall, I've pointed out that - for a band director - a "major instrument" is a complete fallacy. Band directors should spend enough time (not just a "brass class", "woodwind class", "percussion class", and "strings class" to develop minimum proficiency on all of the band instruments. How can they POSSIBLY do this when their "education" degree involves a "major instrument" (several semesters of intense study of ONE instrument, including a semi-professional level recital) ?

The POINT of a major instrument is that a music teacher is not JUST a teacher but a musician. Every music teacher should be an excellent musician and accomplished on their own instrument (dabbler of all, master of none?). By studying heavily on their own instrument the student educator will become a stronger musician and have a greater depth of understanding in performing music. How can the music teacher (let's say Band Director) except his students to master their own instrument (or at least work towards it) if they themselves spent more time learning every other instrument than their own?

Yes, the "band director" needs to know how to play (or at least teach) the other instruments. But having an intimate knowledge of PERSONAL music making on ones instrument is invaluable as a music teacher.

(...and, of course, we know the purpose of the "major instrument" thing: How can the marching band and basketball band sound very good at all without good players playing their "major instruments" in them...??)

Not true of universities. The one I attended consisted of MANY more non music majors than actual majors and I'm sure there are many more.

...and how many semesters do music education majors spend in a conducting class...one...?? (never four, I would wager)

I spent 4 semesters and I still work at it, like many of my colleagues.

...and how about (pre-student teaching) REAL classroom management courses...and courses that discuss legal liabilities, fund-raising, dealing with parents, dealing with administrators, dealing with students of the opposite sex, etc., etc... ? Nope...but they sure have course-after-course on "theories" of edgukashun" and such.

There is MORE in that statement than ANY college could teach. You can't teach EVERYTHING either. Legal liabilities change, fund raising depends and handling money depends on the situation, and so on. All teachers learn this over time. Should a little more be taught or discussed? Probably. But you sure as hell 1) Can't cover everything and 2) just don't have the time if you are developing other important aspects of the career.

There IS, of course, a way to handle this: The way to handle it is for music education majors who WISH to study a "major instrument" to pursue a MINOR in music performance, rather then pre-incorporating a minor in music performance into a band director degree. THAT way, the band director degree can PROPERLY cover more aspects of that discipline, rather than going off heavily into a tangent of a completely difference discipline (performance). The OPTIONAL MINOR would, likely, add a 5th year on to the degree program...Many music ed. folks take five years to graduate any; At least making the performance thing an optional minor would make the five years 'honest' on the part of the university.

[pierso20]

Hello Everyone,

So I am looking into buying a CC tuba, i have thrived thus far on school tubas and I am transferring from a jr college to a University. My future instructor encouraged me to buy a new tuba so that I wont have to keep "getting used" to new tubas. I dont think that is a problem, but i trust his judgment and it has also put a bug in my ear looking for a tuba of my own. The real problem is my budget (which will lead to a caviar taste on a ramen budget issue) The absolute most i could spend on a tuba is $3,000. (*insert poor college student story here). I want to be a band director and teacher. Therefore i really dont know how much time i would have or desire to practice after i get my degree. SO i was wondering if it would even be worth it to drop my small amount of money to get a tuba when the schools tubas are better.

Thanks in advance

You don't NEED a CC tuba, especially if you're going to be an educator. BUT if you want one, go for it. I enjoyed learning a new key. Ultimately, you just need one.

You should get your own horn. You don't need to break the bank. Plenty of nice horns in your budget that will do you well.

You SHOULD keep playing when you are teaching. How can you expect your students to practice/play if you won't? And you never know when an ensemble in the area needs a tubist or whatever. You SHOULD have a desire to keep playing...again, how can you expect that of your students if you won't do it?

If I was hiring a music teacher (which I DID last year) I would NOT want to hire someone who refused to fund a personal instrument because they didn't have the desire to practice or play after having their degree. Being a music teacher can be a tough road....if this is your attitude now it would behoove you to really evaluate if this is what you want to do.

[pierso20]

Brooke,

I'm just not going to get into all of that mess again. It's been covered, and I'm just not interested to re-discussing it.

"The point of an art historian is not just to know about art history, but to be able to create art well enough to understand the significance of the art itself."

"The point of a psychiatrist is to not just understand mental illness, but to be crazy enough to be able to be adequately empathetic with patients.

bloke "Is Brooke implying that conductors are not musicians? That's a whole other argument."

------------------------------------------

potential real estate investor: "So, Mr. Appraiser, what do you think of houses in this zip code?"

appraiser: "I wouldn't buy a house in this zip code."

potential real estate investor: "So, Mr. Appraiser, in which zip codes have you bought investment houses?"

appraiser: "Oh, I haven't bought any."

Terrible comparisons.

An art historian is just that...a historian.

A psychiatrist is just that, a psychiatrist.

But what about an art teacher? They shouldn't need to be proficient in creating art?

You're simply wrong. Music teachers should have working knowledge of music performance, especially since most schools employ music teachers to teach performance. They aren't teaching conducting an aren't just there to "conduct the band". They are there to teach.

I'm not implying that conductors aren't musicians.

[theatomizer13]

Thankyou everyone for your input. I need to clarify some things.

1st I switched to CC tuba two years ago and I can still play BBb but it would make it a pain to have to switch back. Personally I am overall glad that i switched. I am dissapointed at how much it set me back though. However i know what practice routines ect make for the easiest transition.

2nd For the education standpoint I can see the argument you are both having, both points i believe are important. However I feel more of middle of the Road. I am going to BYU- idaho. It has a great program. Every method is required (brass, choral, string, woodwind... ect) then Two semesters of Band Practicum (how to run a rehearsal ect) and One semester of Marching practicum. It is a great school and they consider the music majors as double majors already and they are not allowed to minor in anything. That being said there are a number of schools that have great programs. However i believe that it is the exception to the rule. From what i have seen most colleges are rather deficient in producing quality music teachers. That is all i will say about that.

3rd Thankyou for the advice on my students taking me seriously as a performer and conductor. That is an extremely good point and thankyou again for bringing it up.

4th I live in Nowhere AZ. I do not really have the opportunity to test out many tubas especially not unless I want to ship them back and forth from the east coast. By that reconing i will assume that a China Tuba (Chuba?) is not a wise decision for me as to that i would be unable to test it before purchasing.


Thankyou all again for your insight. the tuba i currently play is a miraphone 5 v CC 9018469? In playing so many tubas (different brands and qualities) I have come to the conclusion that there are going to be trade offs. Ex. On my current tuba i can hit down to A0 just fine but i struggle with anything above D4 I played another nice tuba when i went to audition in Idaho and I could hardly hit a D1 but the f4 just sailed out of it. I think that i would like one that opted for a better high register as that is what the repitore that i will be playing doesnt go lower than a Eb1

[Radar]

Selecting a Tuba now a days can be very difficult. Because so many people are buying over the internet (everything from Houses, to cars to Musical instruments) and the number of instrument brands and price points available Brick and mortar music store are not stocking instruments (except guitars and other high demand instruments) that you can try (with the exception of a few low cost beginners instruments). Here in the Rochester area we have about 1/2 dozen music stores and I cant find a tuba on the show room floor of any of them. I've been reaching out to retailers in other nearby cities and they don't have any in stick either. From what I've read on here there appear to be some retailers who prescreen their Chinese instruments prior to shipping them out, which will reduce your chance of getting a total dog. There also seems to be a few (some of them on this board) reputable dealers in used instruments, who if you tell them the specifics Since you have access to school instruments now, you do have the advantage that you can choose to wait for the right used instrument to come along, but in some areas that could be a long wait. I don't envy you your decision about whether, or probably more accurately when you need to buy a horn of your own. I would suggest that when the time comes your best bet is probably going to be to do some research and find a reputable dealer of new or used instruments. With your experience I'm sure you know what you want in a horn, if you relay your particulars to a reputable horn dealer who has staff that are familiar with your given instrument, and test the instruments before shipping, your chances of having to return a horn you don't like are greatly reduced, but you will want to make sure they have a return policy just in case. Good luck with your decision, my suggestion would be that (since getting used to new school owned horns hasn't been an issue for you) would be to take your time, do your research, and find a dealer/seller you can trust to help you select a horn in your price range that will fit your needs.

[imperialbari]

I recommend you check out a school owned instrument and start searching for a good used instrument. In the mean time, practice what you will preach once out of school.

I agree. Use what instrument the school offers you.

Been a teacher and budget juggler long enough to read your future teachers statement like this:

‘If you buy your own tuba, I have one more tuba to give to a band member’.

If you are entitled to a school instrument, play a school instrument.

Klaus

[Untersatz]

Scott...
What happened to you the other day? You called, but didn't show.

Now would that be Scott Sellmansberger??? or Bloke Anderson???

[Jay Bertolet]

Yup, no argument here. I have been advocating this for a while. Joe, you and I have had some very long conversations on this topic, it doesn't surprise me at all that you're reluctant to engage in yet another round of these talks. Having been in several different areas of the country and having still seen the common elements in all this, I think people are not logically thinking this through anymore. Others may think differently but to me, the skills required to be a great player and the skills to be a great teacher/band director are very different. Sometimes you find folks that have both skill sets but those skills are still distinctly different. Suffice it to say that the education system needs to recognize that difference and stop leading students down the garden path of a watered down performance degree having any chance of real success in the realm of teaching. Too many students take an education degree as a fallback position and fallback is exactly what they do. Our children, being instructed by band directors who didn't really want to be there in the first place and who don't really have the proper training to do the job, get to suffer the fallout of that debacle.

To the OP, thanks for clarifying your reasons to look only at CC tubas. It makes perfect sense that you don't want to switch back at this point. Good luck in your search!

[eupher61]

Wow. How about discussing options about TUBAS for this young man, rather than tear down his education choice?

The idea of "having to get used to a used instrument" is a total fallacy. Well, at least the idea that a used instrument is any more difficult to get used to. Frankly, that is SUCH a stupid statement that I almost question the knowledge and experience of the person who made the statement. Almost. I won't, because i don't know who it was.

Why would a new instrument be easier to acclimate to than a used one? Totally bogus. Very few instruments are plug and play. The ones that are closest are probably those that have been tweaked by a past owner. In other words...USED.

$3k can get many a Mirafone/phone 186. Cerveny (or stencil thereof) Piggy. Those two are very commonly used, although Piggies don't come up for sale all that often, for some reason. Maybe because they are good??

With any instrument, new or used, you have to try it. With a tuner, another set of knowledgable ears, and another skilled player who may be that same person. And several mouthpieces. You likely need a full day at least to go through it. High range etudes, low range etudes, loud, soft, fast, slow. Did I mention a tuner? A big room is most likely better for this trial too. You need to be able to hear the instrument. Did I mention another player, too? And another set of knowledgable ears?

Don't fall for the shiny is better routine. Dents can be a problem, esp in leadpipe and valve section. Unless it's a huge dent in the biggest branches, don't worry.

Have fun, and please let us know what you get! (I do second the idea that a good BBb would be far better than a so-so CC)

[Tubajug]

Speaking of Piggys for sale...

Piggy for Sale!

[Michael Bush]

If I were in your position, OP, I would consider this tuba:

http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TU410L_4_4_CC_Tuba.php
http://www.wessex-tubas.com/category/br ... s/cc-tuba/

Tom at Mack Brass will even pay for the return shipping within a certain window of time if you hate it, so your worry about shipping to and from the east coast can go away in that case. (And no, I'm not a shill and no I don't get anything from telling you this. It's just information.)

The main objection that still has cogency is political. If you just can't stand the idea of Chinese manufacturing, then never mind. But this is a responsive, in-tune tuba. Some tuba players you have heard of and heard play quietly have one. And you can get one for 2/3 of your budget.

[Michael Bush]

"band director degrees"

I completely agree with you, Bloke. If such a "band director degree" had been available when I showed up at college, I would (presumably?) be a band director. When the reality of the situation (which is pretty much what you describe) came home to me, I switched to political science.

[Bob Kolada]

$3k can get many a Mirafone/phone 186. Cerveny (or stencil thereof) Piggy. Those two are very commonly used, although Piggies don't come up for sale all that often, for some reason. Maybe because they are good??
Have fun, and please let us know what you get! (I do second the idea that a good BBb would be far better than a so-so CC)

A year ago, at least, $1800 would have gotten you a clean four valve 186 C or the similar Cerveny on eBay. Maybe those were the rare bargain?

[Lee Stofer]

My two cents' worth is to bide your time, play school instruments, practice diligently, play different tubas when the opportunity arises, and do your best to figure out what you like to play the most, and why. Then, after you have your degree and are making money, save a bit of it and then buy the instrument you really like, and stay with it, whether it is new or used, one of any number of really good tubas out there. We humans are pretty impatient for the most part, but waiting and looking for the right instrument pays off in more ways than one.

[TheHatTuba]

4th I live in Nowhere AZ. I do not really have the opportunity to test out many tubas especially not unless I want to ship them back and forth from the east coast. By that reconing i will assume that a China Tuba (Chuba?) is not a wise decision for me as to that i would be unable to test it before purchasing.

Horn Guys, aka Ferguson Music, in SoCal would be my first call if I lived in AZ.

+1. Makes for a l-o-n-g day of driving, but they're great. No pressure to buy, and the staff is very friendly and knowledgeable.