Overhaul vs. New (or new used)

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:36 pm

Hello Everyone,

I am considering having some major work done to my Miraphone 186CC. There are some dents which need to be removed (which will require some dismantling) and one repeat offender at the top of the bell (the wreath needs to be removed in order to properly fix it). I am also considering having it re-laquered. I really like my horn and I kind of promised myself that one day, when I had some money, that I would sink a little bit into it so that it would look great again!

After some research and emailing/calling around, I have discovered it is not easy to find someone who has the capability to re-laquer tubas. Plus it is also very expensive!

So I am left to wonder whether I should get all of this work done (again because this horn works for me) or should I sell it and buy something new (or newer) as I would have spent a fair chunk for the repair work (plus the money that I might get from a sale).

Now I know this is sight unseen. No one knows how I play and whether a new horn would be better or whether I should stick with what I have. I also don't want to be like a kid in a candy store and end up getting something that is beyond what I need (or am capable of playing), just because it's newer.

Anyway I am just looking for some thoughts or suggestions.

Thank you.

NCSUSousa · Post by **NCSUSousa** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:45 pm

Just curious - who have you called?

Edit - It would also help to know where you (or your horn) are located and how far you're willing to travel to have your horn serviced. It's really hard to make recommendations without those 2 pieces of info.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:51 pm

I suppose it depends on what you would buy new. If you would replace it with another Miraphone 186 CC, the cost would be about $8,000. Minus whatever your present horn would sell for ($2000?) that would be $6,000 you would have to come up with.

$3,000 would buy a lot of renovation of your current horn.

If you would be happy with a clone, the Mack-TU410L, a respected clone of the 186 CC, goes for $1795.00.

There have been many discussions here regarding used Miraphone vs. new Chinese clone. Look around at them for more information.

Maybe some of the repair people reading this could give you a better idea of the renovation costs.

TheHatTuba · Post by **TheHatTuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:57 pm

Post a pic of it here and maybe one of the repair guys can chime in. If you like the horn though, and you have no intentions of selling it in the immediate future, go for it!

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:59 pm

NCSUSousa wrote:Just curious - who have you called?

Edit - It would also help to know where you (or your horn) are located and how far you're willing to travel to have your horn serviced. It's really hard to make recommendations without those 2 pieces of info.

Fair points!

I am in Canada and I would be willing to send it to most places. To be honest though, I haven't looked to far into shipping as I have just concentrated on trying to find someone to do the work. Getting the dents removed isn't the issue. There are several top-notch repair people in Canada who could do this work. It's the re-laquering that is causing some issues.

I've contacted Oberloh (they're too busy and I don't think their interested in doing this work for a 186), Dillon Music (is willing to do dent work but doesn't have set for lacquering), and some others.

Again I may just have to live with cosmetic condition and just have the dents removed. Just trying to make sure that whatever I do makes sense money-wise!

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:25 pm

TheHatTuba wrote:Post a pic of it here and maybe one of the repair guys can chime in. If you like the horn though, and you have no intentions of selling it in the immediate future, go for it!

Here are some pics:

http://youtu.be/Xpgj5Vr4QL8" target="_blank

bort · Post by **bort** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:36 pm

NS Tuba wrote:
TheHatTuba wrote:Post a pic of it here and maybe one of the repair guys can chime in. If you like the horn though, and you have no intentions of selling it in the immediate future, go for it!
Here are some pics:

http://youtu.be/Xpgj5Vr4QL8" target="_blank" target="_blank

My opinion -- get it repaired and do NOT waste money to relacquer it. That tuba still has a LOT of the lacquer on it, and refinishing would be unnecessary even if the video looks better than in-person. Even if you had it refinished, it would wear in those places first anyway. Maybe you can have the worst places spot-lacquered, but again, they would just wear through again.

The repairs you need *look* minor, and you can probably have it cleaned, straightened out, and looking good for less than you think.

Nice tuba. Is the 5th valve slide stock or something you had made?

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:11 pm

bort wrote:
NS Tuba wrote:
TheHatTuba wrote:Post a pic of it here and maybe one of the repair guys can chime in. If you like the horn though, and you have no intentions of selling it in the immediate future, go for it!
Here are some pics:

http://youtu.be/Xpgj5Vr4QL8" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
My opinion -- get it repaired and do NOT waste money to relacquer it. That tuba still has a LOT of the lacquer on it, and refinishing would be unnecessary even if the video looks better than in-person. Even if you had it refinished, it would wear in those places first anyway. Maybe you can have the worst places spot-lacquered, but again, they would just wear through again.

The repairs you need *look* minor, and you can probably have it cleaned, straightened out, and looking good for less than you think.

Nice tuba. Is the 5th valve slide stock or something you had made?

The fifth valve was a custom job. I purchased this horn from my tuba teacher and I believe he had it done in Montreal (many years ago).

bisontuba · Post by **bisontuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:52 pm

Hi-
You have one of the great brass repairman on the planet in Toronto--and also a nice guy! Give Ron a call:

http://partchbrasswind.ca/" target="_blank

Regards-
Mark

MartyNeilan · Post by **MartyNeilan** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:07 pm

If it was -ME- I would basically leave it alone, and have a repairman I trusted with magnet debt eraser work over the unguarded parts. That horn does not look that bad at all!

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:59 pm

bloke wrote:1/ Don't re-lacquer it. Just un-solder the bottom bow and fix it.
2/ For criminy's sake, don't remove the bell wreath.
3/ Sell it to me for $2000 as-is.

I'm curious about your second comment. I was told that the reason why the bell recrinkles (if this is a word) itself is because someone just tried to roll it out with the wreath still on. Are you aware of another way to get it fixed so that it will stay fixed (without me doing damage again -

)?

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:20 pm

Looks like just some minor dentwork to me that shouldn't involve taking anything apart except maybe the bottom bow. Don't remove the garland. Just roll the bell out and be careful with it. Even new... these bells weren't very substantial.

JB · Post by JB » Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:03 pm

Some very good advice about your 186 from Bloke, Bort, and Tubatinker (aside from Bloke’s “Sell it to me for $2000 as-is“ suggestion!).

I know the horn well, so can offer some observations:

From Bloke’s comments: yes – it is vintage, and the valves are fine (no issues there). Any newer 186 purchased would not simply be a “new one of the same horn.” I completely concur with Bloke’s recommendation.

Bort thinks similarly to my own opinion: “That tuba still has a LOT of the lacquer on it, and refinishing would be unnecessary even if the video looks better than in-person. Even if you had it refinished, it would wear in those places first anyway.”

Tubatinker gives good advice: “Don't remove the garland. Just roll the bell out and be careful with it. Even new... these bells weren't very substantial.“

It seems, given the consensus from advice offered, consider getting dent work done by someone reputable and accept the minor cosmetic inconvenience from “a good life lived” as part of your instrument’s character. (Or sell it to me as is for $2100.)

(PS: Oh, “Is the 5th valve slide stock or something you had made?”

The 5th valve work was custom, something I designed and had done in the southwestern US some years ago. It made the 5th valve “match” with the other horns I was using at the time.)

roughrider · Post by **roughrider** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:48 am

Another possible Canadian solution to your issues might be Robert Munroe at Musicaid in London, Ontario. Robert removed two major dents from my MW2145 CC and also relaquered the horn. He did an excellent job and was extremely pleasant to deal with. I am a fussy customer and he was able to allay all of my concerns. Give him a call or drop in. I think you might find what you are looking for!

tofu · Post by **tofu** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:52 am

The only thing I would add to what has been said is another option for the finish is to completely strip the lacquer. I've got silver plated and lacquered horns and personally I'm just as happy with the finish on my vintage 185 which is completely raw brass. Come on - you know you want to come over to the wear nothing at all side - go naked!

Also, I'll bid $2101.50

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:22 am

Thank you all for your input. This has definitely been a help. Much appreciated!

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:30 am

Ok I have to confess. While I was looking into the possibilities of a new horn I was intrigued by the Miraphone 1292/1293 "New Yorker." Anyone have this horn or have tried it? Has anyone played both a 186CC and the 1292/1293 and could offer a comparison?

Thanks!

bort · Post by **bort** » Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:06 am

They are very different horns. The 1292 is considerably larger and a much bigger and rounder sound. The 186 is more focused. If you feel like you're working too hard with the 186 in a large ensemble, the 1292 will make your life a whole lot easier, though, in my opinion, the sound can be too dark and the 186/188 sound "prettier." Totally a personal preference thing though.

NS Tuba · Post by **NS Tuba** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:36 am

I have to admit that I really haven't tried many different tubas. I have my Miraphone and a Yamaha F. Getting to try new horns just isn't possible in my location and I don't travel a whole lot. So I'm going to ask a question now that is probably dumb, but hey I want to know an answer so here goes!

If money was no issue and I went out and purchased a really big tuba (6/4 Alan Baer MW 6450), would it be possible that it would be too big for me to play? There is a little bit of a difference between my C tuba and something like the 6450! Again this is assuming that my approach to playing is good overall and that I am using good wind support in an effective manner.

I ask as Bort mentioned that if one felt that they were working too hard, then something like the 1292 might be a good choice. This caught my attention as I wonder sometimes whether this is the case with my current setup. It's hard to tell if it's me or the horn that is not producing what I want. Most likely it's me, but I do wonder!

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:51 am

This was just posted in another thread. It talks about instrument choice and other factors involved in choosing an instrument.

http://www.barthsbrassblog.com" target="_blank"

It might be useful here.

TubeNet

Overhaul vs. New (or new used)

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