The Hated #4 Valve.

[Benjamin]

Any body else out there that loves the #4 valve? Well I'm right there with you. But my question is, I have a band director that tells me during long tones and scales you should not use it and he said to only use it when first like sight reading music. After that he said just use the first 3, my question is, what is wrong with the #4 valve.
Thanks for any opinions,
Benjamin.

[JayW]

am not sure where he's going with that.....Last time i checked the 4th valve on my horn works great for playing in tune......... but maybe thats just me.....??

[chevy68chv]

the fourth valve works great in most situations, often times more in tune than the third. Keep using it.

[Hank74]

As one who has only been playing for three years, but one who has talked to many experts on this board, I can tell you the fourth valve is very crucial if you want to play the very low notes that you can't with a 3 valve tuba. I say go for it and counter your teacher with this valuable information that you've seen here on these boards.

We know what we're talking about.

Hank74

[Benjamin]

Well, this guy played Trumbone, also I don't think he likes me. LOL.

[Dylan King]

Tell this guy that he's lucky to be directing any band if that is what he thinks you should do with the fourth valve. It would be foolish not to use it. It makes playing easier. It's as if he has never seen a pro tubist at work.

He should start looking for another band to fool around with. Try not to listen to other things he says that sound ridiculous. They probably are.

You should print out these posts and give them to him.

MSM

[Matt G]

Fourth valve is a lengthened version of 1+3. This allows for better tuning on (for BBb tubas) C and B below the staff and low F and E.

Additionally, it provides for more tubing to lower the fundamental of the instrument. This allows you to have access to notes that might not be as easily prevalent on a 3-valve tuba.

If he plays trombone, he doesn't need an F-attachment. If he has one, he should only use it while sight reading, if you follow his tuba logic.

Just use fourth valve properly and don't worry about what he says. He won't be able to see your valves most of the time and if he does, than he is paying attention to the wrong thing. Make it easy on yourself. If anything always just do as you are told and know that you are right, but compromising for the "good of the band".

[Joe Baker]

He's wrong, but (knowing he's a trombone player) I know just why he's thinking what he's thinking. Trombone players avoid using the trigger when they can, because it changes the tone of the instrument. The fourth valve is just like the trigger, right?

What he's not taking into account is that (a) one valve will have less effect on tone than two valves; and (b) unlike the trombone, you can't make tuning adjustments with the slide; that's the REASON for the 4th valve. It's to make technique easier on trombone, but on tuba it makes technique a little harder, but fixes the intonation.

Obviously, the meatheads that posted before me are right about your director being wrong, but I'm sure they (and you) know you can't go tell him he's an idiot. Instead, find a time when you can talk with him for a little while, privately. Explain to him that you correspond on the internet with a lot of tuba players, including a number of pros, and that you're confused because what he says conflicts with what the tuba players all say. Ask him if you can tell him what tubenet says, and then listen to what he says to you. If you can, get a tuner and show him how MUCH (a lot...) better in tune a low C is with 4 than with 1-3. Hopefully he'll at least go off and investigate the question before rendering a verdict.

Another (actually, now that I think about it, BETTER) alternative, if you have a private lesson teacher: ask your teacher to have a chat with the director, and explain that the 4th valve isn't a cheater's shortcut, but the RIGHT way to play notes 5 semitones down from the open bugle.

And good luck. And remember, it's always risky to question authority, but doing it politely will improve your chances of a good outcome.
____________________________
Joe Baker, whose cheapo tuba doesn't HAVE a 4th valve, so he DOES have to play a lot of trombone with his tuning slides.

[Gorilla Tuba]

Before you automatically label him an idiot, check you pitch with a tuner on notes that used 4th valve. On my PT6 CC tuba I purposefully play D 1 and 3 becuase it is pretty well in tune on my instrument. Maybe you need to adjust your 4th valve slide.

If, after you checked with a tuner, you are right by using the fourth valve, disregard his suggestions. However, it will not be of any benefit to argue with him in front of the class... especially if you are right.

[Chuck(G)]

There's definitely something going on here. I've yet to have a band director notice what fingerings I'm using for any note (and that includes BD's who play tuba)--and that includes giving the Bb tuning note for the group on a CC tuba or Eb tuba.

If you are playing in tune, this should be a non-issue for any band director, so you might want to check yourself out with a tuner.

"Playing with a tuner" means that you check your tuning by playing a note without looking at the tuner, then glancing over to it to see how you did. Playing while staring at a tuner is self-defeating because you'll adjust with your embouchure to correct the note.

Somewhat OT, the same idea applies when you're playing with a metronome. If you're llistening for the click to start a note, you'll always be late. The idea is to develop an internal sense of rhythm so that your note beginnings and the clicks precisely coincide.

[Benjamin]

Well, when we warm up he tells us what to play and walks around insted of directing us. He also has us play with a metronom sometimes when we play music so he can walk and watch.

[Rick Denney]

Well, when we warm up he tells us what to play and walks around insted of directing us. He also has us play with a metronom sometimes when we play music so he can walk and watch.

There is nothing wrong with either practice. It tells me that the instructor wants to know what individuals are doing, and that's a good thing.

It is not unusualy to suggest to a young tuba player who is just transitioning from a three-valve tuba to a four-valve tuba to use the fourth valve only on sustained notes until the player builds the fourth valve into all his fingering patterns. Even now, I sometimes play a passage using only three valves because of the years I spent learning to play on a three-valve sousaphone, and that was nearly 30 years ago. He may have heard this advice from some part of his training as a teacher, and is possibly applying it unnecessarily in your case.

Those who have suggested that you check to make sure your sound and pitch are correct with the fourth valve are right on the mark.

Trombone players think using the F attachment can be a crutch and is something to be done only after fully mastering the slide. They are right. Others have suggested that your teacher may think the fourth valve is the same sort of crutch on a tuba.

But they are also right when they say that, for better or worse, the teacher has authority over you. This will be true for the rest of your life--people who you disagree with will have authority over you to some extent. It's not too soon to learn how to deal with it. That means showing respect, and it also means not engaging battle unless you are ready to walk away from the band. If you have a private teacher, he can help you. You can go to your teacher and say this:

"Mr. Teacher, I asked my private teacher about the use of the fourth valve on the tuba, and he suggested that I need to use it at all times. He said that it's not like the F attachment on a trombone, and that it's part of routine technique. So, I'm confused, because I want to do what he says and also what you say. Could you talk to him and work it out?"

That takes the pressure off you. If you don't have a private teacher, you could say that you posed the question to advanced tuba players on Tubenet, and now you are confused, because they say that the fourth valve is not like an F attachment in that it is part of standard technique and should be used all the time. That won't sell as well as using a private teacher, though.

Respect is everything. If you treat him with respect, you can politely ask him to verify his instructions without undermining your relationship with him. If you are combative, it won't matter if you are right, you will still lose out.

If you think he doesn't like you, then perhaps there's a respect issue already on the table. I find that respect is something most school kids these days don't understand very well, and it hurts them more than they know.

Rick "who has never been disliked by a teacher to whom he showed unvarying respect" Denney

[windshieldbug]

Well, it is obvous that you need to use YOUR OWN FOUTH VALVE, not the tubist's next to you. Once you straighten that out, see if your section can chip in for a new set of ears for your director THAT ISN'T "OUTSOURCED" TO CHINA. Listening to those pentatonic scales all day can really make one aggrevated!

The point is, it is going to take a certain length of tubing to play a particular note in tune on your horn. Even if your horn is "compensating" (like some Bessons), which adds additional tubing when 2 or more valves are used, some notes "lean" one way or the other, even on the most in-tune of horns. The reason you have a fourth valve is to make up for some of this. When you see a good tubist play, he will be pushing and pulling SEVERAL slides. Use the tuner to both check yourself and the horn out, and then to prove your point. Be respectful (you may be playing with this trombonist someday), but be right and firm.

[Benjamin]

Well, I've been useing a 4 valve Tuba since the 7th grade because our middle school had to borrow the high schools Tuba. I actully have more problums not useing it, like getting my fingers out of wack trying to use only 3. So I'm pretty sure it is not that. Also I'm the only Tuba in our band so forget section. LOL Listioning to the sound of the C note, it sounds better with just #4 insted of #1 and #3. (But then again I'm just a high school kid.) I will aprouch him in calm polite manner after a rehearsal with this issues and the facts that I've gained from all you. Thanks for the post, if you have any more add them.
Benjamin

[ThomasDodd]

will aprouch him in calm polite manner after a rehearsal with this issues and the facts that I've gained from all you. Thanks for the post, if you have any more add them.

So, how'd it go?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Benjamin]

It went pretty good actully. It's allways been his preference to use 3 because you never know when your going to get stuck with a 3 valve and be out of wack. That is what he said. He said since I sent asking and got all this info he will not complain about it. He also liked the way I told him, you know not interupting or embarrsing him in front on the class. Thanks for all the info guys.
Benjamin.

[ThomasDodd]

It went pretty good actully. It's allways been his preference to use 3 because you never know when your going to get stuck with a 3 valve and be out of wack. That is what he said. He said since I sent asking and got all this info he will not complain about it. He also liked the way I told him, you know not interupting or embarrsing him in front on the class.

Good to hear.

He has a point, IF you don't own a horn. I'd suggest ocasionally playing without the 4th. Keeps you on your toes. Learn to pul the slides, and lip-it (depending on speed). It coul come in handy next time you need to play on a 3v sousaphone, for money Or something happens tou your horn, and you can only borrow a 3v horn from the school, since all the "good" horns are already checked out

[kalishdude]

4th valve, when tuned correctly, is always more in tune, i dont where what your conductor is talking about. ALWAYS USE 4TH VALVE!!!!!!

[Wilco]

Mmmm... my B natural in the staf (on mira BBb) is better in tune with 1+2 than 2+4. I tuned the 4th valve to low C btw...

[Gorilla Tuba]

Apparently your band director must have been sick when low brass instruments were covered in his brass methods class(es). Anyone who says to use finger combinations 1-3 or 1-2-3 as opposed to 4 or 2-4 should be consider a new career, ESPECIALLY if the horn you play on is compensating.

Damn... I better get a new career. I tune my 4th so that the 2&4 C# (CC tuba ) is in tune. That makes my 4th valve D really flat. I do best with playing D 1&3 with a little slide pull. Its much easier to manipulate the 1st or third slide while playing than it is to pull the 2nd or 4th on my horn.