Trumpet player new to the Tuba - Advice?

[Graham]

Hi all,

First post (yay!), and I'm aware that I should probably have used the search engine first, but I wanted to cut straight to the chase.

I'm a trumpet/cornet player, teaching at a secondary school here in the land of Aus, and came across a deal I couldn't pass up on a little student model 3-valve B-flat tuba.

I'm getting myself acquainted with the instrument, and I'm finding that my bottom Bb register (talking in concert pitch here) is nice and solid, with all of that lovely "letting go" feeling, and the Bb register above that is ok, but my F register has a tendency to give me a double-buzz.

Now I have managed to find that if I physically move my whole embouchure DOWN in the mouthpiece, flatten my chin and almost pin my bottom lip to the bottom of the rim of the mouthpiece that I can get consistent sound throughout that register, but I'm certain that it's not the right way to about it!

I read in a post somewhere (might be here) about Jacobs' advice that the double buzz is indicative of the starvation of air, however, I found that feeding more air through it didn't seem to do much, but the manoeuvring did.

What exercises should I be working on to strengthen this F register, so I can move fluidly from low Bb to F and then the higher Bb?

BTW, I'm totally not ready for pedals on this instrument just yet!

Any advice is welcome, and particularly anything that can be conceptualised being a trumpeter would be great. I tried posting on a trumpet forum, but received flippant comments (tsk tsk)

Cheers,
-Graham

[Untersatz]

Welcome to the tuba world & welcome to tubenet

What size mouthpiece are you using? It would seem logical to me to use a smaller size MP since
you are used to using a lot smaller one on trumpet. I'm guessing around a 25 to start with. That
might help to "bridge the gap" so to speak. Now you won't be playing transposed anymore! when
you play a written B-flat, that is what you are actually playing
I really wouldn't even worry about pedal tones for now, just work on stuff in the "normal range"
Maybe there are some members here that have doubled before on trumpet/tuba that could offer
some better advice? Good luck on your tuba playing.

[Donn]

I suppose our readers will have all kinds of ideas. I was just talking to a fellow band member who teaches trumpet, as it happens, and his idea about this was that you really shouldn't think about what your face is doing. Hear the pitch and play it, that's the key. I suppose that means, like whistling. I know I set my own playing back very severely when I adopted what I understood to be the correct embouchure, which is actually not correct for me. Not many people are really competent to tell you how to form your embouchure.

Anyway, lots of players run into a mid range problem like that. Among the hundreds of things you might try is to having a little more lip in the mouthpiece - upper/lower/both, whatever works. Also think about bringing the air for the note a little earlier.

[captbill]

All three of the above replies have good info in them. One thing to bear in mind, is to try to keep your airstream (read teeth, jaw and throat) as open as you can. On tuba it is very easy to sound like you are playing through clinched teeth. That, to me at least, is a very obnoxious sound. Think in terms of singing bass while you are producing a tone. You can't get a full vocal sound if your throat is constricted. Just relax, let the sound come and as Donn said don't overthink embouchure. Also as mentioned previously, lesson are usually a good thing.

[iamtubasam]

I went the other way around. I started playing tuba and then learned trumpet. On tuba the mouthpiece is bigger so it starts to feel like you are doing a lot more embouchure-wise than you do on trumpet. That is normal. Also, use a lot more air and, as previously mentioned in another comment, keep everything open.

[aqualung]

Three words: drop your jaw.

Most trumpet players, moving to a lower instrument, don't change the distance between their teeth and will get a small "yoinky" sound.

Wm. Bell used to have his tuba students practice with wine bottle corks clenched between their molars.

[A side benefit for Wm. Bell was that he first got to empty the wine bottles.]

[Roger Lewis]

The infamous double buzz - in my personal experience - stems from the upper lip buzzing the desired note, but the lower lip is set too soft and starts to counter vibrate at 1/2 the frequency. In my playing, solving it only required a slight firming of the lower lip.

This is what I found in MY playing and it may or may not work for you, but it's worth a try. I think you were doing the same thing by trapping the lower lip against the rim of the mouthpiece.

Best of luck to you on your new endeavors and welcome to TubeNet!

Roger

[Graham]

Thanks for the replies guys!

...in the land of Aus

Where about? There are some fine players and teachers in Australia. A few first hand lessons would be a great way to start.
Cheers!

I'm in Melbourne - I'm currently playing at Hawthorn Band, under the baton of Wayne Bowden. I fully intend to get some lessons from him, when I've got the time!

Welcome to the tuba world & welcome to tubenet
What size mouthpiece are you using? It would seem logical to me to use a smaller size MP since
you are used to using a lot smaller one on trumpet. I'm guessing around a 25 to start with. That
might help to "bridge the gap" so to speak.

I got a 24AW mouthpiece, which I think feels alright. Doubtless I'll experiment and see what I can get. Transposition should be ok, so I'm not too worried about that.

In general, I'm going to try and keep my jaw dropped, open everything up and firm up that bottom lip. I'm very excited to get into it as much as I can, as I feel that this instrument can really get me using my air to its full extent. I have Arban for trumpet and trombone, so I'll get myself a copy for tuba and add to the set! Is there anything else I should do as a routine to get me on my feet?

Scales and flow studies seem to be the most beneficial at this point for me!

[Untersatz]

A 24AW is only one size larger than the 25, so that should be fine. I was just wondering if you were starting off with a large MP.
I don't think that would have helped you out much in the transition

[Radar]

I play euphonium, and occasionally pick up a trumpet to play taps. My embouchure placement on each instrument is slightly different. like you I play Tuba with my lips low in the mouthpiece with the bottom lip touching the bottom of the mouthpiece rim, with Euphonium my placement is more towards the lower side of centered, but on trumpet I play with my lips higher in the mouthpiece, and a little off to the side. If that mouthpiece placement works for you and you're getting good tone throughout the range of the instrument don't mess with it. If anything you might want to try a few different mouthpieces to find one that gives you the best results, but I would spend some time on the one you have before you try that. A few lessons with a competent Tuba instructor would help you in this effort.

[ken k]

Actually what you are doing probably is not too bad. Many players use more upper lip and less lower lip. the rim of the mouthpiece will help hold that lower lip in place. I don't know about "pinning" it in place, watch to not use too much pressure that you inhibit the natural buzz. It probably just feels a bit odd due to the size of the mouthpiece. The placement of the upper rim of the tuba mouthpiece will definitely be higher on your lip than the upper rim on your trumpet mouthpiece.
Welcome to the land down under and enjoy the tuba!

ken k

[brassbow]

I double from high brass to low all the time so here is my 2 cents worth. First a tuba isn't a trumpet. Take the time to let the horn "play" you to get the feel of the airflow. You will find your phrasing may suffer a bit so sneak breathing is a must until you learn how to control the air. With tuba think "presence" instead of "reach out and touch someone". IMPORTANT spend equal time on each instrument if you intend to double. Also do not be surprised if you play one instrument and "hear" the other. I play Eb cornet and sometimes forget I am playing the effer and think like a Bb player. Do you intend to play a song on trumpet and then the next on tuba? If so either practice switching or give yourself a few minutes to get into the mindset of the other instrument.

[Getzeng50s]

Only advice after switching a few trumpet players to tuba: MORE AIR

[Graham]

Awesome advice guys, again, thanks for all of this info.

I'm a high-school teacher, teaching trumpet, trombone and voice, so I would always bring both my trumpet and trombone to fill whatever gaps would come up during band rehearsal each week.

I work at an all-girls school, so it's VERY woodwind dominated, with only a couple of trumpets, 1 piano kid doubling on trombone, and myself filling the gaps. I made my debut with my tuba at band rehearsal yesterday morning, and the kids were all fascinated, and it was great fun!

I really enjoyed playing the tuba parts, and, of course, picking up my trumpet or trombone to show a kid how to get around a difficult passage. So far, so good.

One thing I noticed was that I have very little concept of how I sound on the tuba, so I was a bit reticent about playing in band so early on during my experience, but everyone reassured me that I was sounding pretty good. Even better was hearing from about 3 or 4 teenage girls that they think the tuba is (and i quote) a "boss instrument" and that it's "cool". A big win there for brass in general!