Is this really what it is?

[bububassboner]

Good day!
So this horn is pretty close to me
http://m.kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/s-anzeig ... /155416075" target="_blank
Owner says it is an Alexander. I'm not convinced. There is no engraving saying Alexander on it (though if the original kranz was removed it wouldn't) and something just doesn't seem right. My gut feeling is that this is a weltklang/B&S made horn and not an Alexander. What do you say?

[TheHatTuba]

The thumbring doesn't have the typical Alexander shape...

[Jay Bertolet]

It doesn't look like any Alexander I ever saw. I never saw one that had those semi-round finger paddles. Every Alexander I ever saw had the longer paddles. Those almost look like they're from a Cerveny product. I used a Kroner BBb tuba in high school that had paddles exactly like those. Also, that horn is pretty new and shiny, and it didn't look to me like there was any bell damage (though I admit those pictures make it a little difficult to tell). If there were no bell damage, why would the wreath be gone? I agree with you, something seems amiss.

[NCSUSousa]

I don't think I can resolve your question, but here's my take on what I can find (lunch break is almost over).
The one in your link looks alot like this older Alex: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUPERB-1962-VIN ... 1289734125
Vince Simonetti has one like this in his collection too: http://simonettitubacollection.com/inst ... -4-rotary/

For comparison, My dad's old BBb is a B&S copy of the Alex. Most of the details on the ones I've linked match his, but his rear valve caps are not as decorated as the ones in these links. Unfortunately there isn't a picture of the back of this one. The other detail that I find significant - the attachment plate for the thumb ring. In the real Alex tubas from that era, it's got slightly different shape. On the copies, I don't think they used the same attachment plate. The one on my dad's tuba is a basic diamond shape. The ring itself matches, but that's because my dad had the guys at Alexander do some work (including replacing the thumb ring) on his tuba while he was stationed in the US Army band in Germany.
I'm sure some of the guys here familiar with the various copies can tell if they're consistent from G. Schneider to Sonora to Musica to (how many names were used for these stencils in the '70s and '80s?).

Edit note - I mis-used the term 'stencil' in the first version of this post. Alex didn't sell 'stencil' anything. I've fixed my post to say 'copy' now since that's what the East Germans did.

[NCSUSousa]

Actually, It does have the bell kranz: http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s ... 075-74-339
The pics are better on the real e-bay instead of the mobile version...
I'm out now - back to work.

[Dan Schultz]

How can much be confirmed from those crummy pictures? It could well be an Alex from what I can see. I just had an Alex in here a week ago with paddles like that.

[royjohn]

Is you is or is you ain't?? Aren't there other questions here?

1. How does the tuba play? Is it worth the asking price based on its condition and how it plays?

2. Since a group of fairly expert tubists can't agree for sure that it is an Alex, you can't base the value on that pedigree and could argue that point with the seller. Show him this discussion.

3. IDK what one of the stencils is worth in Germany. You'd have to determine that. Then, if it plays well, it would be worth what one of the stencils is worth, maybe at the high end of that range, esp. if a good tuba is hard to find at that price in that area of Germany. AFAIK the Kroners and old Sonoras, etc., are selling for under $2K in the US. Bargains and good tubas at that price, but, since name recognition is poor, that is the going rate here.

If you think of it this way, you don't have to worry about whether it is an Alex. The real issue as to value and name recognition would be, can you prove it is an Alex? So far, the answer to that question is no. You tell the seller that it may be an Alex, but it if can't be proved, and you have to resell it, you have to sell it at a lower price, based on it being an unknown brand that plays well . . . so that is the price you can pay for it.

[NCSUSousa]

' never seen any Alex tubas that are shaped precisely like Markneukirchen-made (ref: the pictures) tubas.

Take a look at the Simonetti link from my post. That horn is definitely an Alexander.
As far as I know, It's still at the Simonetti house in Durham. I saw it a few years ago (I don't stop by there often enough).

From what I've been told, the Alexander 163 (old design) is the one that the B&S/Markneukirchen guys copied and sold in the west under many stencil names during the cold war. When Germany was unified, the state trade/patent regulations stopped their production of that shape (not Alexander, just the East Germans). Alexander also chose to abandon that design around that time too as far as I can tell.
(Edit - Removed reference to Chinese copies of the same style, that seemed to derail the thread...)
I'm not sure what the time gap really is for when Alexander redesigned the model 163, but that's the story as it's been told to me. Hearing here about how Alexander doesn't make all of the parts themselves explains how some of the detail elements (braces, thumb rings, valve paddles) are an exact match between the 2 instrument makers.

Edit - After all of this discussion, I don't think there's any way to answer the OP's question other than seeing the horn in question and finding an engraved bell kranz that says it's an Alexander. All the rest of the parts used on this design of horn seem to be so well copied/distributed that the rest of the horn is nearly impossible to distinguish between the GERMAN manufacturers. It may actually be a moot point given that so much effort was given by the East Germans who made the copies - the copy may be just as good as the original.

[TheHatTuba]

Looks a lot like the horn linked below, minus the paddles/linkages and lack of bottom bow keel. Again, the thumbring on Alexanders have an odd, insideout curve kinda shape (even the old ones), while the B&S horns have what is pictured in the ad.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=36495&p=319796" target="_blank

To the OP, do you know the bore? I think the B&S stencils have a bore in the 3/4" range and the Alexanders are .807".