dumb post - related to Holton BB-345

[Tubaguy56]

Wow, now that would be nifty......

[cjk]

Don't you have an not-quite-cut-to-CC Olds Contempora with the tall York bell "B tuba" packed up somewhere? You could use that tuba as a vantage point to see the advantages of a B tuba without cuttin' up one of your two high dollar Holtons?

IMHO, I don't think the work involved will make it "worth it" when it comes time to sell the horn.

[Art Hovey]

Ray Noguera told me about a similar project he did on a Walter Sear dePrins BBb tuba which has its main tuning slide in the leadpipe; he put a rotary valve in where the leadpipe nearly intersects itself so that when the valve was turned you had a BB tuba with no tuning slide. He said that Sam Pilafian had tried it and liked it. Your version is a lot more sophisticated than his, I think, and if anybody can make it work you can. Personally, I would be terribly confused by a BB tuba, but I know that there are tubists far more intelligent than I am who could handle it.
Back around 1961 I saw Bill Bell demonstrate a tuba mute with his King CC tuba, and I built one that was very close to the the dimensions of his. I found that it made my tuba play exactly one semitone sharp. I can't be sure, but I suspect that Bell just used Db fingerings with that mute; that's the sort of thing he could do. The mute was shorter than any other tuba mute, and it did not stick out much at all from the bell. The lower end had an unusually wide opening.

[Uncle Buck]

I don't think Bloke is advocating this tuba for use with the full range of BB fingerings. I think he is trying to create a good, symphonic BBb tuba with a more useable B-natural than most BBb or CC tubas. It doesn't seem the alternate slide would be intended for any use other than that note.

Is that right? Are you suggesting that typically the standard 5th valve slide would be used, but the alternate one could be inserted for a piece like the Ride where a good, open B-natural would be useful?

[Rick Denney]

I don't think Bloke is advocating this tuba for use with the full range of BB fingerings. I think he is trying to create a good, symphonic BBb tuba with a more useable B-natural than most BBb or CC tubas. It doesn't seem the alternate slide would be intended for any use other than that note.

No, he's not talking about the fifth valve slide. There is no fifth valve on a BB-345, unless you add one. He's talking about the fifth bow, which is the first bow following the tuning slide and dog-leg.

You would remove the normal slide and replace for tunes that worked better with a B tuba.

I think the Ride works quite well on a BBb tuba, but the trick is to use 1-2-3 for B, and pull the third slide enough to compromise the tuning with the 2-3 F#. The fourth slide on the Holton is fatter than the others, and I don't actually think this is an improvement on the design.

Rick "who has never subjected anyone to an example of this opinion" Denney

[jeopardymaster]

Some of you might remember my post from a while back re Rach #2. Except for the B naturals that were giving me fits on my 186, Rach #2 lies way better on a BBb than on a CC. And Prok #5 is a great lie for BBb. Lots of the Russian stuff, in fact, as well as Sibelius ##1 and 2, are AOK (to my taste anyhow) on BBb -- as I think the composers/orchestrators may have intended!

I say go for it. And please feel free to update us on your progress.

[Uncle Buck]

No, he's not talking about the fifth valve slide. There is no fifth valve on a BB-345, unless you add one. He's talking about the fifth bow, which is the first bow following the tuning slide and dog-leg.

You would remove the normal slide and replace for tunes that worked better with a B tuba.

I think the Ride works quite well on a BBb tuba, but the trick is to use 1-2-3 for B, and pull the third slide enough to compromise the tuning with the 2-3 F#. The fourth slide on the Holton is fatter than the others, and I don't actually think this is an improvement on the design.

Rick "who has never subjected anyone to an example of this opinion" Denney

Thanks for that clarification. I guess I didn't read Bloke's original post carefully enough.

Edit - I just realized how bad of a Monday morning I'm having (I've been trying to go off caffeine lately, and it shows here). Before my original post, it didn't dawn on me how the way I was reading Bloke's original post is only possible in a Bizzaro world where the laws of physics are backwards.

A Bizzaro tuba would be cool.

[MikeMason]

I'm dealing with the ride now on my holton.Of course mine has a MW valveset with extremely long slides that actually push past the "0" point(i think they made this set for a CC or BBb).I'm using 123 with a long first pull for the B and E.With a pt50+ I'm getting a fair amount of pop...Never played your horns but i vote for not cutting and just learning the horn and figuring out a strategy for each issue if you really love a horn.

[The Big Ben]

again: no cut

...just a completely changeable back-and-forth as needed/desired (with two wing screws) option

Sounds like an interesting experiment. You've thought it out well and have the skill to make the modification so it is "right". It's reversible, too. Go for it.

[iiipopes]

OK, on a BBb, you don't need the 5th valve to get low F T-4. So that leaves a 5th valve open. I like the idea of the looped leadpipe/tuning side with an ascending valve to get exactly B natural & F#/Gb. But without a second trim slide, you'd have to be EXACTLY on with your positioning, with no second chance on the leadpipe!

[cjk]

Have you considered making an alternate longer tuning slide which extends the horn to A instead of shortening it to B? Might be easier. Also would have a quicker change around time.

You could always add a fifth half-step valve that would drop the horn to A. Then have slide extensions or alternate slide to extend that to a flat whole step.

Adding a valve could also be considered "forward progress" if you decide you don't want to keep the horn.


--Christian

[Rick Denney]

"Not every great tuba is a Holton 345, and not every Holton 345 is a great tuba."

Absolutely gosh-darn right.

Rick "who has played Holtons (and Yorks, and Hirsbrunners, and Meinl-Westons, and many Conns, and even Miraphones) that howled at the moon" Denney

[Matt Good]

For your orchestraphiles, what would be "wrong" with playing Prokofiev 5 on a BBb tuba...??

Man I wish I could own a good BBb.

-Matt

[Tigerreydelaselva]

Hello, what is the bell diameter of this tuba?, and what manufacturers would make copies of the BB-345 actually for the market?

[NCSUSousa]

Hello,
What is the bell diameter of this tuba?

and

What manufacturers would make copies of the BB-345 actually for the market?

Answer 1 - Some modern replacement bells are made at 19". (I found that here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=37546&start=12#p329053)

Answer 2 - I don't think anyone is making an exact copy of the old Holton. I'm sure someone here can ring in with alternative new 6/4 size tubas that may sound similar. I haven't put my hands on any so I'm not going to pretend to know.

You can also find at least 1 used Holton BBb for sale in the 'For Sale' forum here on Tubenet (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=58906). Holton made the 345 in CC and in BBb. There are other places selling used Holtons if you search a bit on Google.

Edit - Corrected response to the bell diameter question. The original diameter is not noted in the post that I linked.

[Untersatz]

Hello, what is the bell diameter of this tuba?, and what manufacturers would make copies of the BB-345 actually for the market?

Dick Barth, BMB (Big Mouth Brass) has based his 6/4 BAT on the Holton design, but I wouldn't call it a "copy"
And I believe this also has a 19" bell diameter.

[Untersatz]

Hey Joe,

Since someone has resurrected this old thread........did you ever go through with this mod.
on any tuba? (I'm guessing not, since you never posted anything more).

[Tubajug]

I'm thinking this was just a little bit before the current BBb tuba orchestra craze.

That's what makes you a visionary bloke!

[Untersatz]

I can relate to the low B natural thing completely! That is the only note (2-4) I hate on most BBb tubas. I can't speak for all 5-valve BBb tubas, but my Martin/Gnagey delivers one of the best sounding low B naturals 2-3-5 AND in perfect tune without any slide pulls & is very easy alternating between the B & the F-sharp & same thing with the low E natural below that (2-3-5)

[eupher61]

nothing has felt more cool to me, in orchestral type playing, as playing "The Ride" on my Martin. Yes, BBb. Yes, as Rick said so many years ago, 1-2-3 for the B, pull 3 for the F#s. thank goodness for front 3rd valve slides with top pulls.

Only problem, with the small stage, in order to keep the Valkyries from looking idiotic in their Ride, it went so fast, and one of the choruses was cut out.

But, having performed it a couple times on CC...this was vastly more cool.