Water issue

[dbktuba]

I am new to the forum and have returned to playing tuba after a long hiatus. I am currently getting up to speed on many basic playing techniques. I have an issue that perhaps there is some help available on this form. I am playing a Conn 5J BBb 4V and am having an issue with water("spit"). The 3 water valves don't seem to handle all the water(even though they are cleared regularly). The notes sometimes sound like they are drowning and gargle. Is there a technique or something I can do to improve this? or is it a feature of the instrument or player? Thanks for any insight.

[bill]

Okay, I have owned three of these horns and they all have required a bit of technique to master draining the condensation, from playing, from the horn. First, you have to pull the lower (short) first valve slide to empty it. No water will collect in the second valve slide since it is tipped down when you play. It is helpful if you remove #3 slide and dump it, too but you may be able to reach across the horn, open the water key and blow in the lead pipe and get it to drain, as well. This may work for #4, too. After you have done all this, you may have to "spin" the horn counter clock wise, 3 or 4 revolutions, (valves on the side of the horn away from you, as they are when you play), as though you are scooping grain or sand with the bell. Water may then dribble out of the lead pipe if you keep that pointed down when the horn is upside down as you are spinning it. With the lead pipe down, shake the horn. This should empty the condensation.

[dbktuba]

Thanks Bill I will give it try and let you know the results.

[dbktuba]

Bill - Thanks so much. It worked like a charm - The condensation issue is gone and I know how to manage it now.

[Untersatz]

Bill just described the "CONN SPIN" that the rest of us know all too well as the "KING SPIN"

[sousaphone68]

For me its the Besson spin remove main tuning slide spin the tuba anticlockwise once keep legs and feet out of the way of the deluge

[ppalan]

Yup, I have to do the same move periodically on my Miraphone 186. There's a bend right before the main tuning slide that collects water. I'm thinking of getting a Saturn Water key installed. The bass trombone player is getting tired of getting "beaned" all the time.

[tbn.al]

Me too. The "Olds" spin. The tube out of the 4th valve has a 90 degree bend about 3 inches out of the valve. It is amazing how much water collects in that short piece of tubing. Bell down then a half turn and empty the 4th valve slide. If I get a Saturn in there it will just wet my pants if I use it.

[tbn.al]

Same issue with my Olds. I can't imagine a water key in the particular spot, even a Saturn. Even if you managed to get one in there emptying it would be a hassle, a dripping wetness on your fly hassle.

[pjv]

Funny, I was thinking about this today. It amazes me that with such a long history (175 years should be long enough?) we still accept tubas that fill up with condensation every 2 minutes (OK, in the winter in cold countries).

One of the joys of playing my B&S Symphonie F-tuba is that most of the condensation goes straight to the main tuning slide. I very rarely have to make a half spin to empty the 3rd & 4th and can't remember ever having to make a full spin.

Certainly this is one of the advantages of an F tuba, but in particular that of the typical German rotary valve f-tuba design.

Has anyone every had a poll of which BBb and CC tuba's have the least condensation problems? Think about it; a tuba that drains easy, plays easy and plays in tune. The dream of every aging tuba player!

[scottw]

Yup, I have to do the same move periodically on my Miraphone 186. There's a bend right before the main tuning slide that collects water. I'm thinking of getting a Saturn Water key installed. The bass trombone player is getting tired of getting "beaned" all the time.

+1!!! The 186's 4th valve slide fills up the most, needing 2 full counter-clockwise spins to clear it----always messy for the guy to your left!

[NCSUSousa]

Funny, I was thinking about this today. It amazes me that with such a long history (175 years should be long enough?) we still accept tubas that fill up with condensation every 2 minutes (OK, in the winter in cold countries).

One of the joys of playing my B&S Symphonie F-tuba is that most of the condensation goes straight to the main tuning slide. I very rarely have to make a half spin to empty the 3rd & 4th and can't remember ever having to make a full spin.

Certainly this is one of the advantages of an F tuba, but in particular that of the typical German rotary valve f-tuba design.

Has anyone every had a poll of which BBb and CC tuba's have the least condensation problems? Think about it; a tuba that drains easy, plays easy and plays in tune. The dream of every aging tuba player!

Switching between marching and concert seasons always got me thinking about this. There is a big difference in dealing with water in the valve tubing on marching tubas and sousas, but not having to worry about it as much on the rotary concert tubas. (Yes, I realize there will be more condensation outdoors in the cold. I'm talking about during rehearsals in that nice warm rehersal room - noticed the difference there too.)

Most of the 'German style' rotary BBb tubas are similarly designed in this regard. The basic design on the Meinl-Weston, Alexander or Cerveny valve clusters has the water run down and out of the 1-2-3 valve tubing to the main slide while in playing position. The 3rd slide on the St Pete and Miraphone designs still have a low point below the valve, but it doesn't create much work with as frequently as 3rd valve gets used in most band literature. I will say that the design on the Alex or Cerveny 4th slide lets you empty it in only 1/2 a turn, unlike the Miraphone design.

I would guess that there's a way to re-shape the 4th valve tubing to match the single bend 3rd valve design, but it may get too close to the bell unless you start with a <40" tall model. Unfortunately, I don't think that matches the idea of making the tuba easier to handle. It also doesn't fix the issue that Bloke mentioned of having water collect in the 1st loop after the main tuning slide.

[bigbob]

Bill just described the "CONN SPIN" that the rest of us know all too well as the "KING SPIN"

I have that very same problem with my Gnageyphone. Having never owned a big horn just my 3J for 22 years.. which by the way I never had water problems with..Of course I never played it every day...The second day I had the horn it filled with water even after I emptied the amonty valve on the main slide.. I pulled the botton slide there was water02... Then I discovered the top tuning slides had a lot of water in them I still got crackel and popping I had to turn the horn 3 times to get the water out(copious amounts) I later found out that all of his horns with the king/ conn set up were like this!! sometimes I couldn't even finish a practice seccion without stopping empting the it and then trying to figure out where to put my slides! How could someone playing a concert have time to do all of that and still be in tune?? Since I now empty it before during and after I practice(every day) I haven't had to turn 3 times for water...I'm sending a pic so you can see what tuning slides I'm talking about..The slides where most of the water comes out is 02..05.. o6..and 07 Is there anything I can do??I'm going to DC in a few weeks Maybe someone there can help me...Love the sound of the prototype...............BB

[bigbob]

Bill just described the "CONN SPIN" that the rest of us know all too well as the "KING SPIN"

I have that very same problem with my Gnageyphone. Having never owned a big horn just my 3J for 22 years.. which by the way I never had water problems with..Of course I never played it every day...The second day I had the horn it filled with water even after I emptied the amonty valve on the main slide.. I pulled the botton slide there was water02... Then I discovered the top tuning slides had a lot of water in them I still got crackel and popping I had to turn the horn 3 times to get the water out(copious amounts) I later found out that all of his horns with the king/ conn set up were like this!! sometimes I couldn't even finish a practice seccion without stopping empting the it and then trying to figure out where to put my slides! How could someone playing a concert have time to do all of that and still be in tune?? Since I now empty it before during and after I practice(every day) I haven't had to turn 3 times for water...I'm sending a pic so you can see what tuning slides I'm talking about..The slides where most of the water comes out is 02..05.. o6..and 07 Is there anything I can do??I'm going to DC in a few weeks Maybe someone there can help me...Love the sound of the prototype...............BB

[Walter Webb]

You would think that, after all these years of design improvements, all tubas would be easy and quick to drain!
However, some tubas are just a pain in the arse to drain, with odd little bows hidden behind slides and brackets. My Marzan BBb has one such little bow that is really hard to get out, and sure enough, when there is a mysterious burbling that cannot be handled by normal drainage, it has to be fished out most daintily with the fingertips and carefully lowered down and out to free it. It also requires pulling a few slides fairly often to drain.

I find it very undignified to pull a slide and pour out a couple of tablespoons of "water." People in the general vicinity are grossed out!

The Alex 163 requires NO slide pulling. All the condensation runs downhill, right to the vent on the main slide. No twirling, no slide pulling!

[Untersatz]

I later found out that all of his horns with the king/ conn set up were like this!

Bob, maybe I'm one of the lucky ones, but on my Martin/Gnagey 6/4 BBb with the King valvset (1-2-3) and Conn 4th, 90% of the water goes straight to the MTS & most of the rest I empty from the 3rd slide (on bottom). Every great once in a while, I pull the 1st, 3rd & 4th slides (with horn on its bell) and get a small amount out of these.
All slides are very accessible & this horn can be easily drained in the upright position, unlike many tubas that have to be leaned over almost horizontal. I have NEVER understood the placement of the water key so far up the side of the MTS that requires this

Martin-Gnagey.jpg