possibly of interest to bass trombone doublers

[finnbogi]

I always assumed those old Conns and Holtons had a "B" pull.

My Conn 71H certainly has. There is even a groove in the slide to mark its approximate position for the E.

[eupher61]

Another bass trombone friend of mine, an Emory Remington/Eastman Alum, soldered a nickel silver loop underneath the crook of his F-attachment slide and tied it to a very long and stout piece of braided fishing line. With his playing slide all the way out, he simultaneously pulled that F-attachment slide all the way in (with the fishing line attached to his shoe) while also moving his playing slide all the way in.

That way, he was able to execute that Bartok glissando - and without any "faking" whatsoever.

Legend, at least, is that was Ostrander's original solution as well. Which was so frustrating to him that he begged someone (Giardanelli? Bach?) to do the Eb rotor also.

[tbn.al]

I always assumed those old Conns and Holtons had a "B" pull.

My Conn 71H certainly has. There is even a groove in the slide to mark its approximate position for the E.

Approximate in the key. My old Conn was about 1/4 step sharp with the tuning slide on the mark and normal 7th. In order to get the B in tune I had to pull the tuning slide out to a precarious position and then push the hand slide nearly off the end. I have seen many attempts at slide destruction trying to recover from this daring exploit during a 4 measure rest. I now own a dual independent Besson. The Hagman valves are so free blowing that I don't notice the 2nd valve restriction at all and I can safely play the B in flat 5th. Gotta love it!

[Bob Kolada]

A dependent E valve should allow for a pretty decent B-F gliss as B with both valves would be in about the same spot as single valve C-ish. Heck, one could even pick up a used/not terribly appreciated anymore Bb/F/E Bach bell section to use with one's Edwards bass.

[Lingon]

...The F-attachment well-aligned tuning slide (with pull-ring-and-string) is the only solution I can see for a Bb trombone with any number of valves to offer a pure "no-bump" glissando...

Yes, it is not possible to make a true glissando B-F with a Bb trombone even if it has more than one valve. Many are we that have tried over the years. However, if starting the B with a a fake tone someones are able to play a useful gliss even with only a F valve. Using combinations of 2 valves it is possible to make some noise that could be used but not a real glissando. An F instrument with long hand slide is the instrument Bartok wrote for. And it is also possible and easy to play a nice glissando with the BBb dual slide cb trbn.

But as mentioned in an earlier message there is one ordinary Bb instrument made, not exactly the concept you described but the sounding result is the same, the Thein Bartok bass trbn.

[Lingon]

...Here is what I came up with:

- I shortened the wide fixed branch ("crook" - what-have-you) in the traditional wrap F-attachment by 1-1/8" on each "leg". I then replaced the F-attachment slide tubing with a new assembly that is 1-1/8" longer. This leaves the F-attachment the same length, but allows for considerably more tuning range (if not "low B friendly", at least "low B possible"). To allow for a "quick change" from "nearly all the way in" to pulled "nearly all the way out", I added a stop rod with stop nuts (that, btw, barely clears the main tuning slide but is out of the way with the right hand index finger reaches back there to pull it out). Obviously, alignment and surface-friendly slide tubing was a "must" on this job; It needs to move fast, but obviously cannot leak. I also vented the rotor to avoid a "pop"...

I just reread the original post, and this nice mod you made Bloke is how the instrument should have been built from the beginning, and how most single valve trombones should have been made. One that actually works is the Holton TR-183 with an attachment that looks like your mod, with the exception of the stop rod.

[tbn.al]

Just listened to the Reiner Chicago recording of the Bartok, 1955, and Kleinhammer plays it with a bump. Not that I'll ever get to play the piece because our timpanist could never nail the chromatic, but if I do I might call on Joe for the mod so I can one up my hero.

[Lingon]

...I should borrow that Holton trombone that I altered and make a demo video...

Looking forward to that