Besson 8-10 Automatic compensating model 225, recording bell

[billp]

Hello, A friend of mine asked me to find a tuba for his daughter to play..I found one and from what I can tell, it is what I listed above with a serial number of 197381. . She plays in High school and is an excellent player..I play trumpet, so I am a sympathetic brass player..but not sure if this type of horn is either valuable or useful. It has 4 valves, but the fourth valve seems quite a distance from the 3... and seems about 37" long with a 24" bell across..the valves are stuck and the bell is creased/dented..but really not terrible. I was going to take it to my brass repair guy..but he seems to always say repair..and then I pay to get it repaired.

I was "given" the horn for the girl to use..but the person who gave it to me rescues animals and is not really financially secure, so if possible, I would like to compensate her..get the horn fixed, let my friends daughter use it..then sell it sometime down the road..but as stated earlier, not sure if this beast is worth it..thanks for any and all positive input!

[bill]

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthread ... vK7-_ldX0Q is a good start for information. The position of the 4th valve is normal for compensating horns. Our British brothers may have a lot more information but this is a pretty good representation of what the horn is,
In all Honesty, I would look somewhere else for a 4 valve Cerveny or Amati or some such or, even, a Conn 5J. The 220ish Series of Besson were "school horns." I used to buy them when I taught in Canada for my Junior High kids.

[billp]

Thanks Bill, I did see that thread and saw he wanted $3000, that is why I thought about it..this kid has no money nor her parents..I would like to give the current owner like $200 and get it fixed for I would guess $200-300..so ultimately, would $500 be reasonable to get out of it someday..or is it really just a relic of history gone by? Heck..the scrap value is $130-150..it is huge.

[iiipopes]

If you can stand the limitations of low E 1+2+3 below open low BBb (Bessons do not have good "false" tones because of the comp loops interfering with antinodes), these tubas have great tone and intonation. The problem is that you can't see around the huge recording bell.

Yes, $500 to purchase and another $200 to get it up and running is reasonable. But I don't know if anybody makes an upright bell for them. And if you have to purchase a new bell, the cost/benefit is to get another horn.

Occasionally, if you can find a Besson upright that is either a non-comp, or has had the valve block trashed, the brass is heavy enough that if you can get it for scrap price, the upright bell can be repaired and transferred over to convert it to a conventional bell up comp.

But keep the total outlay, including labor, to the $1000 to $1200 range. Otherwise, you might as well get another tuba.

[imperialbari]

I have the Besson New Standard equivalent with a fixed upright bell. With 3+1 pistons the worst intonation problems are the C and B natural one octave plus below the bass stave. Hardly a real problem with HS repertory.

My reservations would be with

the limited selection of mouthpieces for the old style British narrow receiver (same as modern bass trombone)

the combination of a young female player and a very heavy instrument - I use a K&M playing stand that accepts the ball buster

the long reach for the 4th piston, which may be too much for a potentially short person

the problems with getting a good vision in seated playing - maybe one solution would be about placing the tuba horizontally over the player's legs

Klaus

[billp]

Wow..thanks for all the insights..I will take it to the repair shop and see what the costs would look like..Klaus..it is a ball buster and I think since she is an average sized high school junior..I never really thought of the issue of handling a large instrument..I also didn't think about the mp issue..bell direction..intonation..wow..a lot to consider.

Does this type of instrument get used by anyone that is a quality player or are these types of instruments more to look at and say they are neat? Is there really any market for these? If I was to look in UK for a MP..what type/size would I need to look for that would serve a quality High School player? The High school has a marginal one and she is looking for a practice instrument player at home..but this instrument really may not fit her need..idk

I appreciate all your valuable insights and comments. Bill

[imperialbari]

As I get it the upright equivalent of this model was used by the professional British military bands back then. Now they use more recent Besson Sovereigns, which have a 19" upright bell (mine has a 17" bell). But apparently only for seated playing as these BBb tubas are considered too heavy to march by EU rules for workers' safety. Looks like they use all Eb tubas for marching.

For my taste it is a robust tuba with a good intonation and good sound, but you surely can find modern tubas that are much better for more sophisticated playing. But not at the given price.

As for mouthpieces: very hard to say anything in general. My thick lips need a wide cup to make any sound at all. And then I know that some female players with very thin lips can do amazing things on rims with a quite small diameter. I found the Denis Wick #1 too small for my Eb basses. Your young lady may find it too large for this BBb. Personally I use mouthpieces with American stems for my small receiver Besson BBb, but then I don't march, so I can get away with a less safe seating of the mouthpiece. The most cost efficient approach for you might be to buy a Kelly 18 plastic mouthpiece. I just tested that the small receiver will hold that model (albeit less safely than it will hold a small stem mouthpiece).

And then one more point to check: valve wear. Our repairmen TubeNet'ters will be able to tell you more on that matter.

What does the young lady herself think of the large bell and of the heavy weight?

Klaus

[tofu]

I think any BBb tuba that plays well and is in good repair will always find a market willing to pay $1000 for it. Ideal for a returning to playing adult or student. So if the thing plays well, valves are in good shape and you can keep your total outlay to say a max of $750 for purchase and repairs I think you would easily be able to get your money back out of it. Worse comes to worse you donate it to a worthy school or church group or even a community band that can really use it and take the tax donation write off.

The ball buster can be easily removed by your repair guy for little cost and the receiver changed to an American one very reasonably. But, I bet if you put a WTB on here you can pick up a nice small shank MP cheaply for $25-$35. Also, some manufacturers out there still make available small shank MP. A WIck 2 actually works fairly well and might be ideal for a HS girl. It also isn't that hard to shave down a metal mouthpiece shank to fit and even easier to sand down a really inexpensive plastic Kelly mouthpiece which you can probably pick up on here for $20-25. I believe Bloke also makes available a small shank and I think Doug Elliot does as well, but you may not want to spend that kind of cash for a new piece. I think a playing stand makes sense as the difficulty with these horns is more the ergonomics than the hauling around weight. I know a small female that easily played one of these for years and she sounded good on it.

[iiipopes]

Regarding a mouthpiece -- there is really only one mouthpiece that sounds good with a Besson BBb Comp tuba: The Wick 1 (no letter, as this tuba probably has the small receiver). If her physical development is such that she just can't center a tone, then get a smaller Wick, like a 4, until she grows into the 1.

A player will NOT find a suitable mouthpiece in the $25-35 range. They just don't exist, with one exception: a Kelly 18. I used to play a Kelly 18 when outdoors in inclement weather with the Besson New Standard Comp I used to have. The shank didn't go in but about 1/2 inch, but it didn't have to. It was a brighter tone, but not inconsistent. It has the same cup diameter and rim profile as a Wick 1, just a little more rounded and a little smaller throat than the Wick 1.

If the Kelly 18 is also too large, then either a Kelly 24AW or 25 might work until she grows into the Kelly 18 or the Wick 1.

Did I say Wick 1?

[tofu]

Regarding a mouthpiece -- there is really only one mouthpiece that sounds good with a Besson BBb Comp tuba: The Wick 1

I disagree completely. There are no absolutes in regards to mouthpieces, personal preferences and needs. I've had good results with a Wick 1, a Wick 2, a modified Schilke 67, and even the original Besson mouthpiece that came with my 17" bell 1971 Besson New Standard that I've owned for 30 years. The Schilke is the best for me and the Wick 2 is second followed by the Wick 1. Part of it is sound concept and situational needs.

A player will NOT find a suitable mouthpiece in the $25-35 range.

Oh please. There are lots of these old small shank mouthpieces laying unused in folks mouthpiece drawers from back in the day. Lots of the small receiver horns were sold in the '50's 60's and 70's here in the US. I'm sure there are a lot of folks with no need for these MPs that would readily take $25 and I've seen them listed in the For Sale section here on TubeNet for that.

They just don't exist, with one exception: a Kelly 18.

Again personal preference. Perhaps the 18 is the only thing that works for you. I've got the 18, 25 and Kellyberg and they were all usable in the New Standard. I found the Kellyberg very usable. And these can be all had for 20 bucks or so used. I've bought them used for as little as $15. Again it is personal preference and at these prices she can afford to see what works best for her without a lot of cash outlay

[iiipopes]

Tofu - where reasonable persons may differ. My opinions are based on trying dozens of mouthpieces on my old Besson I used to own. Yours, of course, are based on your experiences.

That brings up another point: we each have physiologies that will be different from the person who is going to be playing the tuba in question, so, in the long run, we are probably both wrong about a proper mouthpiece for her.

[tofu]

That brings up another point: we each have physiologies that will be different from the person who is going to be playing the tuba in question, so, in the long run, we are probably both wrong about a proper mouthpiece for her.

Agreed. Based on assumption, I would personally think a good jumping off point for a HS female would be a Wick 2 IMHO.

Whats great about the big upright top of the line old Bessons/B&H is that they can play really small or really big and they just blend so well with the rest of the low brass. Just listen to the sound they put out in one of the many excellent British Brass Bands. While not one of my main axes I always smile playing it when I do drag it out these days.

[iiipopes]

Indeed. When I sold mine, I sold it to a friend, so that when I get the urge to have that "foundation with blend" tone, I can always borrow it back for a few days!

[billp]

I am really appreciate your assistance. I am taking it over to the repair shop next week..

I will look for the Wick 2 IMHO..does the bore on the mp matter with the smaller receiver on the tuba?

Bill

[MikeW]

The "Denis Wick 2" will fit the Small European receiver that was standard on older Besson instruments.
If the receiver has been changed to American Standard, you will need the "Denis Wick 2L" (L for Large).
I believe someone has already mentioned that a smaller player may need a smaller mp, such as a Denis Wick 4 or 4L - you should probably check with her tuba tutor.

While you have the instrument and a Brass-technician together, it would be worth getting the tech to plug in a mouthpiece and see which receiver size you actually have. If the instrument still has a "small European" receiver, it may be worth talking to the tech about changing the receiver for an American Standard size, to give you access to a much wider choice of mouthpieces, and to make the instrument a little easier to sell when you are done with it. Someone (I think it was Bloke) mentioned during an earlier discussion that the receiver from a Yamaha YBB-201 or YBB-321 is an ideal "standard shank" replacement for Besson/B&H "British" receivers, is readily available to repair shops, and is quite low in cost.

[billp]

I want to thank all of the people who took time to read and respond. Your kindness is a nice surprise in todays busy world. Being a trumpet player..all that bad stuff we used to say..simply is not true..lol..actually., one of my closer friends is a Tuba player, but that was 35 years ago and so much has changed. I am excited to help a young player..this girl is small and skinny, but what a big sound..amazing. I wish I could give her a modern horn to excel on, but the Besson is all I could find..at least for now. Even the public school only has marginal tubas..

Any idea where I could secure a replacement for the recording Bell? Currently, it is a 24" bell..and it seems a straight bell is more desirable..

[Jose the tuba player]

I want to thank all of the people who took time to read and respond. Your kindness is a nice surprise in todays busy world. Being a trumpet player..all that bad stuff we used to say..simply is not true..lol..actually., one of my closer friends is a Tuba player, but that was 35 years ago and so much has changed. I am excited to help a young player..this girl is small and skinny, but what a big sound..amazing. I wish I could give her a modern horn to excel on, but the Besson is all I could find..at least for now. Even the public school only has marginal tubas..

Any idea where I could secure a replacement for the recording Bell? Currently, it is a 24" bell..and it seems a straight bell is more desirable..

doesn't the bell of a king tuba fit? if so
here you go http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Tuba-Bell- ... 2335ca1beb" target="_blank" target="_blank