My next project!

[Tubajug]

I recently purchased a King 2341 (old style) from a fellow TubeNetter and plan on putting a Holton Monster Eb bell and bottom bow on it (which I also purchased from the same TubeNetter) and playing it in Bb. Dan "TubaTinker" Schultz provided me with some longer main tuning slide ferrules to help keep the pitch at Bb with the shorter bell. I would eventually like to try my hand at cutting the whole thing to CC, but that's a ways off...





Last night I gave the King a bath and then started removing some dents with my magnet and balls. I guess the joint between the bottom bow and the top bow weren't very well soldered, because when I got done I noticed a bit of play there. Upon closer inspection, the whole joint had come loose! Oh well, good thing I'm planning on removing that part anyhow! It looks like I'll just have to get started sooner than I planned.



I played it a bit and didn't feel any vast amounts of air leaking through. It's not a very "high pressure" area, so hopefully it will be ok until I can start the project. I still need to use it as is for my community orchestra rehearsals. Wish me luck!

[Pat S]

I admire your bravery and willingness to take on a challenge! Good luck, and post pictures of your progress!

[Tubajug]

Why not add a longer, tapered leadpipe? It might work if you can find the right length/bore.

To be honest, the ferrules are faster. That way I don't have to mess with bending a pipe, cleaning out the pitch, etc. I can just solder the old crook onto the new ferrules and done!

I was also inspired by this thread that I came across in doing some research.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=40978&start=24

Instead of adding a "loop-dee-loop" like this person did, I'm just going to use longer ferrules and some pull in the MTS.

[modelerdc]

Why not build It in CC add a fifth whole step valve to put it in B flat, then make the valve reversible, and play it in B flat. This would mean you could pick the lead pipe not to be longer but for best playing results. A lead pipe just a little to open might be just right in B flat. CC fingerings would fill in so you could play chromatically down to the pedals. Just a thought.

[Tubajug]

Well, I got things rolling tonight! With my lovely wife handling the torch we got the bells and bows separated!



We managed to do it with the leadpipe still attached, hoping it would fit right, but when I did a dry fit with the new bottom bow and bell, the leadpipe was bent just enough to put pressure on the first valve casing, so I promptly took it apart to avoid more permanent damage. I'll have to take it off after all... I was hoping it would fit as is... oh well!

I was really hoping to be able to give it a toot tonight, but with the leadpipe issue, I didn't want to risk it. Thanks for lookin'!

[WilliamVance]

Way to go, Jordan! I'm excited for your new project... It's great you actually have your wife helping out. I get the eye-roll and a slammed garage door when new "parts" enter the garage... I don't think I could get help holding anything... I'd have to call on a friend for that.

[Bob Kolada]

How's just the valve section sound?

[iiipopes]

I can see changing the bell. It is similar to some of the larger King bells used through the years. The larger bow, however, may cause your 3rd partials to be out of tune. I'd use the original bow and just change the bell.

[TheHatTuba]

Looking good so far, Jordan!

Btw, the Holton bottom bow is almost the exact same size as the King...

[bort]

With my lovely wife handling the torch...

You gave her the fun part?!
(Awesome she's there to help you!)

[Tubajug]

With my lovely wife handling the torch...

You gave her the fun part?!
(Awesome she's there to help you!)

She's great! She feels more comfortable doing that than tugging and tweaking trying to get the parts off. The fire does make her nervous though, she said she tried very hard not to set me on fire...

I might give it another dry fit tonight and try Kiltie's idea before taking the leadpipe off completely. It looks like the curve in the pipe "hugs" the bell a bit too tightly. This bell throat is a bit broader than the King stack at the same spot.

[Tubajug]

I should also mention that she did this in exchange for me writing her a piano accompaniment part to a hymn arrangement she's writing for our church choir, so it's not completely free labor... That's ok, I'm just glad she's willing!

[iiipopes]

My tech tells me that if you have to bend the lead pipe for the wider throat of the bell, that you can fill it with hand dishwashing liquid, cap the ends, freeze it, and then bend it slightly; the frozen dishwashing liquid will serve the same function as pitch to maintain the integrity of the leadpipe, but is a lot less messy, and easier to clean up.

[Tubajug]

That is an extremely helpful tip! Thank you. I will certainly be using that if push comes to shove (or freeze comes to bend... ).

[Dan Schultz]

My tech tells me that if you have to bend the lead pipe for the wider throat of the bell, that you can fill it with hand dishwashing liquid, cap the ends, freeze it, and then bend it slightly; the frozen dishwashing liquid will serve the same function as pitch to maintain the integrity of the leadpipe, but is a lot less messy, and easier to clean up.

Some manufacturers are using a 'slurry' of detergent-like stuff to bend leadpipes and crooks. I've not tried it but continue to use pitch.

About rebending a pipe... it certainly needs to be annealed first. I've found that you can take the bend further but bending a crook or leadpipe backwards does not work so well because the material on the outside of the bend is already stretched and will be less supportive than the heavier wall on the inside of the bend.

I have bend pipes 'backwards' only a very slight amount before getting serious ripples on the outside of the bend.

[Tubajug]

Well, I got the parts taped together last night to give it a toot! I like it! I was able to keep the leadpipe attached simply by removing the brace on the receiver (I left it on, hoping it would fit, but that was the thing squeezing against the bell.). Without that brace, the curve of the pipe lays nicely on the Holton bell, I'll just have to fabricate a new brace.

With the tuning slide all the way in, it was reading as a flat B, with it pulled as far as it would go it was reading as a sharp Bb. So with the extended ferrules I've got I should be able to get it right in tune with just little extra pull and still have room for adjustment. Here are some pics (sorry for the homely guy holding the thing...)

That is the rest of the Holton "carcass" hanging on the wall in the background:




I've already got the measurements in to Glenn Cronkhite for a gig bag! I'm pretty excited for how this is turning out! I've got some polishing to do, braces to reshape and fit, and the new ferrules to put on before this is finished, but I've got a couple weeks before our next community orchestra rehearsal, so wish me luck!

[sousaphone68]

Congrats it looks like a good marriage.
When its finished will the tuning slide still extend beyond the bottom bow?

[Tubajug]

Congrats it looks like a good marriage.
When its finished will the tuning slide still extend beyond the bottom bow?

When it's pulled, it will a little bit, but I plan on just pushing it back in for storage. And it sits in my lap so it will be between my legs.

[Tubajug]

Here is (in my opinion) a nice, flattering shot of my project. I got the bow and bell soldered on over the weekend. The leadpipe is currently "floating" off the bell. I need to make a brace to attach the receiver to the side of the bell (I got it started but didn't finish before bedtime Saturday night). Anyone have a small brace that I might purchase to put under the leadpipe on the front of the bell for a little more support/stability?



The more I play this, the more I like it! I still need to switch out the ferrules for the extended ones I have so that it plays in tune, but I really like the sound I get with this thing! I can see why Sam Gnagey uses this combo on his creations.

Let me know if you've got a brace or two I could buy from you. Thanks!

[EdFirth]

Jordan, There's an alternative to having the slide out so far. When the first run of the newer 2341's came out they played sharp.They had basically done what you are doing,a shorterbell on an old style King. I got one for my son and the main tuning had been lengthened. Matt@ Dillon's sent me two longer ferruls to replace the first and second ferruls after the dog's leg. These came on my horn(Dec. 2001) and it's right where it needs to be pitchwise. So Matt could probably hook you up if you wanted to go in that direction. I haven't seen any recent specimans of the 2341's but they may still be using those same longer ferruls. FWIW, Best of luck with it.Ed