Bb or F

[deholder]

Ok.

I am not a student, per se. I am a college professor (of technology no less) and I was asked to start playing again . . . after 20 years. These monsters through me into a 'faculty quintet' and I am doing all I can to keep up. 7-8 hours a week of practice and I am having fun. BUT. As I have hinted in my last few posts, I have been looking at a 'new' tuba.
The band director believes in big tubas with big bore sounds. fine. The brass instructor is a trombone guy. BUT he does have a Yamaha F tuba that I could play if I wanted to.

Maybe its because I have been listening to Baadsvik all day on his miraphone Starlight F that has me wondering if being stubborn about the BBb horn has been a mistake. Should I be looking at the F instead?
I don't want to bash one or the other. But IF I spent the money, can I still hit the pedal F that I love to when needed? I think that low G is my favorite note of all time, but most of the quintet music is written in the upper range and I really have a hard time playing up above a high G.

So, is a BBb horn making my life difficult and the F horn would be a better fit, for church, community and quintet playing? Or should I have the trifecta (BBb, F, and Euphonium in Bb).

Dave

[cambrook]

Personally I would find it very challenging to play a BBb tuba in brass quintet.
If there's a Yamaha 822 that you can borrow that might be a pretty good option for quintet playing.

[swillafew]

I have one of each, and if quintet is your thing, you will like a good F tuba. The fingering from low C to pedal F is a bit of work, but fingering below pedal F is a breeze and the range is as low the BBb. The higher you play, the more you get your money's worth from the F. The range is about the same again, but there is more ease and comfort above the staff.

[gregsundt]

I would at least give the F a try, especially if you have a loaner. Yamahas have a reputation for a pretty good low register, and you will be much more comfortable at the top of the staff and higher. Balance will tend to be easier, too. If it doesn't work out, you're no worse off.

I'd love to have my F back for church gigs, too. In a band of any size, though, stick with your BBb.

[ghmerrill]

Wasn't there a recent survey on this site in which most people preferred an Eb/EEb for quintet?

I've played both Eb and BBb in quintet and have to say I prefer the Eb. And given the usual problems that everyone reports about F intonation, etc., why not either a non-compensating Eb (ala Baadsvidk), or an EEb in the British tradition?

[eupher61]

I love F with a Quintet. I like the blend better, maybe it complements the F horn ?

[windshieldbug]

Why not at least try the F, and see how you do/what you think of the balance.

If it's available, see what YOU think before sinking $Ks into a horn based on what people think on the internet that don't even know you or your sound!

[Jess Haney]

smaller horns are more focused and great for small ensembles. If you plan on doing any large groups than you would want to keep the BBb

[vapourboy]

Yet another vote here for the Yamaha F. Used to own a silver 822 and it certainly was more quintet suitable than my big Alexander BBb (of course,) a mirafone 186 BBb, a MW 2145 CC and for most circumstances a mirafone 80 F. Not much the horn couldn't do, really, wish I still had it around. Might spoil you a bit.

[tubajoe]

For one single horn that is good for all around playing, go for a 4/4 horn. Any key. F/Eb might give you a tad more dexterity but in turn you will sacrifice girth that you will have with a CC/BBb, but either way will work. Don't buy a particular horn based on notes that feel easier to play. Don't try to correct playing inefficiencies with equipment.

My opinion is that far too many tuba players choose horns for *supposed* function rather than the soul of the sound. Play which tuba YOU LIKE the best. Almost any situation can be done on just about any horn. Go with what you want to play and what horn matches how you want to sound. I agree that Baadsvik sounds brilliant on that Norwegian Star Eb. He's amazing and that horn is a FANTASTIC horn. …but keep in mind, he'd sound good on anything!

Here's a great story that relates. It's not a tuba story, but close enough… it's about the legendary trumpeter Adolph 'Bud' Herseth - It's hearsay, so I can't confirm it, but I love the story anyway and I heard it from multiple people when I lived in Chicago. It's something like this: Bud was playing under a guest conductor. Bud always had his multi-horn case next to his chair. The conductor asked Bud to switch horns from C to Bb for a certain (probably Russian) work. Bud reached down and put his usual C trumpet in the case, but only pretended to switch horns. He then pulled the same C horn out of the case and played the part again. The pompous conductor then thanked him for making the switch and said how much different and better it sounded.


The moral of the story is don't get too wrapped up in the arms race. Choose a sound that your instincts tell you to. Sound should always be priority #1. Logistics be damned - there are no rules!

[davidgilbreath]

For one single horn that is good for all around playing, go for a 4/4 horn. Any key. F/Eb might give you a tad more dexterity but in turn you will sacrifice girth that you will have with a CC/BBb, but either way will work. Don't buy a particular horn based on notes that feel easier to play. Don't try to correct playing inefficiencies with equipment.

My opinion is that far too many tuba players choose horns for *supposed* function rather than the soul of the sound. Play which tuba YOU LIKE the best. Almost any situation can be done on just about any horn. Go with what you want to play and what horn matches how you want to sound. I agree that Baadsvik sounds brilliant on that Norwegian Star Eb. He's amazing and that horn is a FANTASTIC horn. …but keep in mind, he'd sound good on anything!

Here's a great story that relates. It's not a tuba story, but close enough… it's about the legendary trumpeter Adolph 'Bud' Herseth - It's hearsay, so I can't confirm it, but I love the story anyway and I heard it from multiple people when I lived in Chicago. It's something like this: Bud was playing under a guest conductor. Bud always had his multi-horn case next to his chair. The conductor asked Bud to switch horns from C to Bb for a certain (probably Russian) work. Bud reached down and put his usual C trumpet in the case, but only pretended to switch horns. He then pulled the same C horn out of the case and played the part again. The pompous conductor then thanked him for making the switch and said how much different and better it sounded.


The moral of the story is don't get too wrapped up in the arms race. Choose a sound that your instincts tell you to. Sound should always be priority #1. Logistics be damned - there are no rules!

+1

[Mark E. Chachich]

The questions I would ask are:
a.) do you already have experience playing F
b.) if not, do you have the time to learn
c.) what other types of groups do you play in?

I am not disputing what the people with full time musical jobs are suggesting. There is a reason that they are playing for a living and their suggestions should be seriously considered. However, it sounds like you are in the same position that I am in (I am also a professor but not in music). Since I do not have much time for practice I only play my CC (at least in public). I think that the BB flat will do what you need if that is the tuba that you decide to play. Simply put, what do you have time to play well?

I like tubajoe's story. Connie Weldon once told me that a conductor that she was playing for told her he would never not want a BB flat in his orchestra and he was glad she played a CC. She said she did not disagree with him and continued to play her BB flat in the orchestra. The conductor never knew the difference, before or after the conversation. Life as a tuba player...

best of luck,
Mark

[Mark]

If you are talking about a Yamaha 822, then It would work. If you mean the 621 F, the lack of projection with this tuba will make it very hard to balance with the rest of the quintet.

[MikeMason]

I've switched horns 4 times in 4 years.our bass trombonist noticed once.no one cares but you. Things I've learned...

[deholder]

You guys are amazing. Thanks so much for all the advice.

Yes, my Phd is in Learning Technologies and the last thing I did on a horn was take my Yamaha Euph to Euphonium Day where I met Dr. Bowman at UNT (My Alma Mater) . I sold my BBb 186 when we had our first baby and the Yamaha Baritone when we had our second. UNT insurance for grad students was good but copays can be a bitch. I thought my days playing were over. However, getting pulled into a quintet was not really in my plan (church orchestra was more like it). At our first rehearsal he pulls out, as trumpets are want to do, a sight reading piece and hands out Ewazen's FrostFire. "let's warm up to this" he says. I should have just quit right there. stupid trumpets. Long story short, this has been VERY humbling and I still resist the urge to turn in my music folder. The director recommended the St. Pete to me as it was less than half the cost of a used Miraphone. At the time (this past fall) the 186's were going for like 5 million dollars OR they looked like they had been dragged behind a truck. I say this because I do seem to wrestle with the 202. Db is way flat but a Gb is way sharp, both use the same 2+3 but I cant figure it out and then F on the staff is so sharp it hurts, but the D and Bb are straight on. argh. I do not remember having this problems with the 186. I wonder if its my horn, or me. I know it's a lot me, but I wonder if life would be better on the other side of the fence.
but yeah, I wish I could play my St. Pete light and fast like Westy Westenhofer on his conn Sousy.
so in conclusion, I have experience with both a Euphonium and Tuba. I guess I was thinking of the Eb / F size as a compromise between the Bb and BBb class horns. Maybe I was wrong. I've never played a Eb or F horn so I would need to spend the summer learning it. Part of me wants to do it as an adventure, but part of me just wants to get a good horn and play the crap out of it. I just need to decide. stick with the BBb as a platform? (Miraphone 186, 187 or Cerveny 686ish) or move to a EEb horn. Either way I think the days playing the St Pete are limited.

[Ulli]

Used to own a silver 822 and it certainly was more quintet suitable than .... and for most circumstances a mirafone 80 F.

What are the difficulties of a Miraphone F 80 (5 valves)?

[ghmerrill]

... I have experience with both a Euphonium and Tuba. I guess I was thinking of the Eb / F size as a compromise between the Bb and BBb class horns. Maybe I was wrong. I've never played a Eb or F horn so I would need to spend the summer learning it. Part of me wants to do it as an adventure, but part of me just wants to get a good horn and play the crap out of it. I just need to decide. stick with the BBb as a platform? (Miraphone 186, 187 or Cerveny 686ish) or move to a EEb horn. Either way I think the days playing the St Pete are limited.

I started off playing an Eb non-comp tuba over 20 years ago (Yamaha 321S) and switched to a BBb (Cerveny 781) because I needed that for the community band I was playing in. I used both the Eb and then the BBb in a quintet I played in, and both worked well.

Several years ago, after picking up euphonium, I decided to stay with the BBb horn because the fingerings on it and the euph were virtually identical (and because the Cerveny was such a nice horn for me). But I longed for the Eb -- I just like them more than the BBb and I'm more comfortable with the Eb/EEb. So my first step was to buy (really inexpensive!) the 1924 Buescher 3-valve and fix it up. I really like it. I liked it so much that I decided to sell the Cerveny, switch to an EEb, and fingering differences be damned. I don't regret it at all and I really enjoy both the EEb and my old Eb horns (and my euphonium).

You can do this as an adventure AND get a good horn and play the crap out of it.

[NCSUSousa]

I say this because I do seem to wrestle with the 202. Db is way flat but a Gb is way sharp, both use the same 2+3 but I cant figure it out and then F on the staff is so sharp it hurts, but the D and Bb are straight on. argh. I do not remember having this problems with the 186. I wonder if its my horn, or me. I know it's a lot me, but I wonder if life would be better on the other side of the fence.

Part of me wants to do it as an adventure, but part of me just wants to get a good horn and play the crap out of it.

I'm with you on these tuning issues on the StPete 202. They're not uncommon for that instrument.
Here's how I solved them on my tuba: Since the F is so sharp, tune the main slide to it instead of to the BBb. You'll still have to pull 3 for Gb but not as much. Not sure why Db would be flat - that's a new one to me. You should still be able to play everything else in tune this way. D in the staff will be flat and it plays better as 1+3 on my tuba.

At the end of the day, you may still want to look for a different instrument and quit fighting the tuning. It's just not as much fun when you have to fight the horn for good sound. I know that a better horn is on my list if I hit the lotto anytime soon. As an amateur, it's just not enough of a priority.

If you haven't tried different mouthpieces, that may be an inexpensive way to get a lighter sound for quintet work. (That's what I did when I had a chance to play in a quintet.)

[iiipopes]

The few times I've played brass quintet, I used my BBb 186. It was well received.

[eupho]

Small CC, medium EEb, or F. (The Starlight is an EEb) Fs are the most nimble, EEbs are the best match to the music in quintets and eliminate the fingering challenges on F, small CCs are prefered by many tubists.