Best Bydlo ever?

[b.williams]

Being the well-known pedant that I am, I will offer the following thought:

Proclaiming that something is the "best ever" implies that one has intimate knowledge of every other instance of that thing in order to make such a judgment. I'm sure no one posting in the forum would have to audacity to claim they know enough about every other performance of this movement to make such a judgment, even allowing for the fact the such a judgment is inherently subjective in nature.

In other words, any claim that this is the "best ever" really has no merit and/or significance at all.

[bill]

Why do you think this is the driver singing? I see no driver in the picture. I see people being hanged and the terrible specter of a horrid treatment of Polish Patriots by the Russian Military. I hear this piece as a Dumka, a lament at the treatment of the Poles as Cattle by a conquering power. I certainly do not see anything pretty about it. The word Bydlo means about what the word kine means in English. It is true of the cart's power source as it is of the treatment of the patriots. I see its mood much as I see the Slaves' Chorus in Nabucco.

For what it's worth if opinions are worth anything at all.

[J.c. Sherman]

Lovely performance!

[smitwill1]

The assertion that Mussorgsky's subject for Bydlo was a sketch of a military execution puts a darker spin on the interpretation, but has anyone found another reference (popular or academic)--besides Sergei Korchmin (http://korschmin.com/portfolio-view/vik ... rettyPhoto" target="_blank" target="_blank) to support this claim? Any musicologists among us?

[pgym]

Why do you think this is the driver singing?

Perhaps because:

In a letter of Musorgsky's to [Vladimir] Stassov [a mutual friend of Musorgsky and Hartmann], written in June, 1874, just before the "Pictures" were completed, the composer calls this movement Sandomirzsko Bydlo, ie, "Cattle at Sandomir", and adds that the picture represents a wagon, "but the wagon is not inscribed on the music; that is purely between us".

-- "Victor Hartmann and Modeste Musorgsky", by Alfred Frankenstein, The Musical Quarterly, July, 1939.

Even Korschmin, the primary, if not only, proponent of the military execution idea, accepts the authenticity of the letter, and in fact, quotes it both in translation and in the original Russian, on his website.

[bill]

Further in the article cited above, you may read:

However, if you disagree, here is an example of commonly accepted imagery in this case by V. Van Gogh. According to A. Frankenstein[8] opinion Bydlo is a Polish word meaning “cattle”. Hartmann’s watercolor, which he had apparently executed during a trip through Poland, showed a typical peasant wagon with enormous wooden wheels, drawn by oxen. Again however, I believe that Mussorgsky has turned this into more of a social commentary on how Russians treated Poles in 1874 Czarist Russia. At a time this was a dangerous notion to express, hence the …

on which I based my interpretation of Bydlo.

Further, Ox carts' drivers seldom mount the vehicle to drive them, in my experience (and in the experience of my Mother's family, Bohemian farmers). Control over an ox cart is usually had by having a pole attached to a nose ring on one of the oxen. If this is a song sung by the driver, it is a lament, certainly and the picture is certianly a protest over the treatment of Poles by the Russian Military.

byw, The Van Gogh was recently shown in an exhibit in Portland, OR, near my home. It is interesting, especially for Van Gogh in that is is nearly black and white, not the color you usually associate with him. I felt that it was really very stark and foreboding. A knowledgeable docent, when questioned about it, said it was really atypical of Van Gogh but in keeping with what was known about his mental state, at the time it was painted,

[pgym]

Further in the article cited above, you may read:

However, if you disagree, here is an example of commonly accepted imagery in this case by V. Van Gogh. According to A. Frankenstein[8] opinion Bydlo is a Polish word meaning “cattle”. Hartmann’s watercolor, which he had apparently executed during a trip through Poland, showed a typical peasant wagon with enormous wooden wheels, drawn by oxen. Again however, I believe that Mussorgsky has turned this into more of a social commentary on how Russians treated Poles in 1874 Czarist Russia. At a time this was a dangerous notion to express, hence the …

on which I based my interpretation of Bydlo.

Further, Ox carts' drivers seldom mount the vehicle to drive them, in my experience (and in the experience of my Mother's family, Bohemian farmers). Control over an ox cart is usually had by having a pole attached to a nose ring on one of the oxen. If this is a song sung by the driver, it is a lament, certainly and the picture is certianly a protest over the treatment of Poles by the Russian Military.

The problem, as smitwill1@gmail.com" target="_blank pointed out, is that Korschmin's hypothesis has attracted virtually no support among musicologists and Musorgsky scholars. One might reasonably expect, if Korschmin's argument is credible, that it would have attracted at least some measure of support among his peers.

You and Korschmin (assuming you're not he) are certainly entitled to believe as you wish; but your and his saying it's so doesn't make it so.

[swillafew]

Mr. Fossi plays it very well indeed. My favorite recording is Roger Bobo, I borrowed the recording in about 1980 and don't know the label or the date. In person I heard Warren Deck play this in a clinic in 1981. Mr. Deck made me have to rethink what can be done with a tuba, and I mean that in the best way possible.

[bill]

The problem, as smitwill1@gmail.com" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank pointed out, is that Korschmin's hypothesis has attracted virtually no support among musicologists and Musorgsky scholars. One might reasonably expect, if Korschmin's argument is credible, that it would have attracted at least some measure of support among his peers.

How do Historians view this idea? Are musicologists influenced by Ravel, perhaps? Do we know what Ravel thought he was portraying? I am sincerely interested in this and don't wish to be argumentative. The closest thing I can think of in American Music is Billie Holiday's Strange Fruit.