Hi-
Well, I met up with Tom today in Ohio--very nice fellow, and 'pulled the trigger' on a trade and acquired the Carl Fischer NY Double EEb tuba ( and saw & played his original Cerveny Tornister tuba-awesome)! I traded a really great & valuable item, but this EEb is really wild-here it is back home:
The horn - thanks to the old Conn hard case it comes with-is in remarkable condition. A few pings and dents-not bad at all! I would bet the farm that this instrument was made by B&F--Bohland & Fuchs--I'd say c. 1918-1929. Takes a standard Euro Mthpce shank. Huge bore, heavy metal--all slides move, full compression ( amazing !), all valve caps --finally got the 2nd cap free- move and valves are in alignment and look like new. Bare brass horn with G. S. Trim. The horn has a very deep sound-- very strange this double EEb -- the valve circuits are ridiculously long--BUT-- the horn is VERY in tune. The needle on the tuner is dead center. I am very shocked. If I were an Effer guy ( and not an 'F head'), I'd be in heaven. But this is really an oddity and rare- maybe unique.
Just thought I'd throw this out there...would love to play an Elgar Symphony on the EEb--it would be the darkest, richest EEb sound ever...
Enjoy the pics!
Regards-
Mark
Last edited by bisontuba on Tue May 13, 2014 8:14 am, edited 12 times in total.
We know it isn't Kaiser tall, but would you be able to post some specs - bell diameter, bore, circumference of where the bell enters the bottom bow ferrule, etc?
Would it be possible to post photos of the rear side in total plus in details?
The stamp on the receiver is worn, but still may carry the answer to who made it. I worked a bit on you photo and could read the last 3 digits as 273. A higher resolution photo might allow for a better intepretation of what is left.
imperialbari wrote:Thanks for the photos of this interesting tuba!
Would it be possible to post photos of the rear side in total plus in details?
The stamp on the receiver is worn, but still may carry the answer to who made it. I worked a bit on you photo and could read the last 3 digits as 273. A higher resolution photo might allow for a better intepretation of what is left.
bloke wrote:.... I'm wondering if King bought their tuba linkage (heck...maybe their rotors) from Cerveny...(??)
Me too. However... I've been told by more than one respectable source that King most likely made their own rotors.
Dan Schultz
"The Village Tinker" http://www.thevillagetinker.com" target="_blank
Current 'stable'... Rudolf Meinl 5/4, Marzan (by Willson) euph, King 2341, Alphorn, and other strange stuff.
bloke wrote:The linkage looks remarkably King-like (even some of the small details).
I'm wondering if King bought their tuba linkage (heck...maybe their rotors) from Cerveny...(??)
This tuba is almost certainly not Cerveny, both judging by hardware details and response from the Cerveny factory that it was not built by Cerveny:
"According to the photos we do not think it is tuba made at Cerveny factory.
Not any of the characteristics (used parts, shape of it, type and shape of valve finger knobs) resemble anything we could have seen in any historical catalogues or museums or when repairing it. Even the serial number will not tell us anything.
So conclusion. This is not Cerveny tuba, more likely we guess this could be a German made tuba with skew valve outlays.
[EDIT]:
I hadn't included a photo of the "Czecho-Slovakia" stamped receiver. So is Krasilce (Graslitz), home of Bohland & Fuchs close enough to Germany?
It was suggested by a very experienced shop owner that it was built by B&F and that "The valve section was probably made by Martin Peter in Markneukirchen who supplied valve assemblies for a number of German, Swiss, Austrian and Czech. makers back in the day."
American sailboats, airplanes, banjos, guitars and flutes ...
Italian motorcycles and cars ...
German cameras and tubas ...
Life is Good.
MartyNeilan wrote:We know it isn't Kaiser tall, but would you be able to post some specs - bell diameter, bore, circumference of where the bell enters the bottom bow ferrule, etc?
Thanks,
Marty "no money, nothing to trade"
Marty-
Tom posted the measurements previously and I checked them again and he was on the money (I used the second valve slide for bore confirmation):
I tried to measure the circumference where the bell goes into the ferrel BUT --not the upper 1st, or upper second, BUT the upper third bow is soldiered completely side by side on the bell so I can't get a tape measure around there--three huge upper bows--the tubing on this horn is a riot--I thought my Cerveny CC/F double tuba had wild tubing--quite 'tame' compared to the EEb tuba....it's a work of art..or a work of plumbing....
Mark
MartyNeilan wrote:We know it isn't Kaiser tall, but would you be able to post some specs - bell diameter, bore, circumference of where the bell enters the bottom bow ferrule, etc?
Thanks,
Marty "no money, nothing to trade"
Marty-
Tom posted the measurements previously and I checked them again and he was on the money (I used the second valve slide for bore confirmation):
I tried to measure the circumference where the bell goes into the ferrel BUT --not the upper 1st, or upper second, BUT the upper third bow is soldiered completely side by side on the bell so I can't get a tape measure around there--three huge upper bows--the tubing on this horn is a riot--I thought my Cerveny CC/F double tuba had wild tubing--quite 'tame' compared to the EEb tuba....it's a work of art..or a work of plumbing....
Mark
As I told Mark it is sort of a huge Piggy, very compact.
American sailboats, airplanes, banjos, guitars and flutes ...
Italian motorcycles and cars ...
German cameras and tubas ...
Life is Good.
bilmac wrote:How does it play? Open and bright or dark and dense? Flexible or a pig? Would like to know. Very interesting instrument and unusual to be in EEb.
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that this is a type of instrument (although well made) that would make even the most respected players in the business, sound like a hack.
bilmac wrote:How does it play? Open and bright or dark and dense? Flexible or a pig? Would like to know. Very interesting instrument and unusual to be in EEb.
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but I think that this is a type of instrument (although well made) that would make even the most respected players in the business, sound like a hack.
Hi-
Don't think of a normal Eb or F tuba in response or quality--think 6/4 Kaiser Contrabass in playing it and in the sound. Not a 'quintet' inst.! Big, full sound and requires a lot of air. Even though marked/stenciled 'Carl Fischer NY,' almost certain a B &F horn and 'extremely' well made--bracing, tubing, rotors, etc. top notch. Every slide is pulled and pushed and valve compression is like new-everything is 'tight.' It hasn't been used very much.
A strange and rare bird, to say the least...I would love to know why this horn was made and if for any 'special occasion' or display purposes (Trade Show/ Exposition/ World's Fair, etc.).....and besides the 'majestic EEb' Helicon, are there any other double EEb's out there.....
Mark
PS. Even though the double EEb is not shown, check out the old 9 B&F catalog pages at Horn-U-Copia--pretty neat....
Hi-
One thing I did discover on the horn that is interesting is that the valves AND rotor casings are 'scored backwards.' The rotors are correct, but the 4th rotor & casing are marked with 1 notch, the 3rd rotor and casing have 2 notches, the 2nd rotor and casing have 3 notches, and the 1st rotor and casing have a 'v' notch for alignment. They are marked/scored/notched from bottom to top instead of top to bottom..the rotor caps and the rotors are all marked '49' except the third rotor & cap which are marked '449'...most interesting...
Mark
jonesmj wrote:Hi-
One thing I did discover on the horn that is interesting is that the valves AND rotor casings are 'scored backwards.' The rotors are correct, but the 4th rotor & casing are marked with 1 notch, the 3rd rotor and casing have 2 notches, the 2nd rotor and casing have 3 notches, and the 1st rotor and casing have a 'v' notch for alignment. They are marked/scored/notched from bottom to top instead of top to bottom..the rotor caps and the rotors are all marked '49' except the third rotor & cap which are marked '449'...most interesting...
Mark
Don't forget that the whole valve block is upside down compared to a "normal" Euro tuba where the stop arms/stop plates are on the obverse side of the horn. If indeed as has been suggested the valveset was built in Markneukirchen by a jobber they may well have been marked for "standard" use.
American sailboats, airplanes, banjos, guitars and flutes ...
Italian motorcycles and cars ...
German cameras and tubas ...
Life is Good.
Jeez - I've played BBb tubas and souzys that had larger specs, and those that definitely weighed more!
Great tuba! Seriously - for even better response & intonation, try a PT-82 mouthpiece, which is made for huge tubas. I recommend a player at least try one once on a larger instrument, such as this, a Conn 38/40K, B&S GR51, Fafners, large Alex, etc. (I can tell you personally that it was the best mouthpiece on a Conn 38K and the B&S GR51 I have ever played)
Of course all of us that love tubas is going to be fascinated by this EEb - but I have been wondering for what it would actually be used to play? For what music would it be better than a conventional contrabass tuba? What is it like in the higher register? I assume anything above the staff is difficult?
This is a fascinating curiosity, maybe good for an Eb player who does not want to learn new fingerings to play contrabass!
Neptune wrote:Of course all of us that love tubas is going to be fascinated by this EEb - but I have been wondering for what it would actually be used to play? For what music would it be better than a conventional contrabass tuba? What is it like in the higher register? I assume anything above the staff is difficult?
This is a fascinating curiosity, maybe good for an Eb player who does not want to learn new fingerings to play contrabass!
Hi-
It plays like a monster Kaiser tuba...big. I too wonder about it 's reason for being made-for some special occasion/event /display? A great curiosity...
Mark
PS. I had the horn on a Hercules stand and my Siamese was in the 'antique' room this afternoon chasing a fly and jumped up and knocked the double EEb tuba over.....grrrrrrrr.... my heart stopped, but Thank goodness for thick padded carpet--a couple of dents in accessible locations (luckily!) that can/will be taken out--horn still plays the same but Mr. Kitty is now not allowed in the room. Could have been MUCH, MUCH worse, but again, grrrrrrrrr.......
