My Easter gig pays...

[corbasse]

I answerd I'm not getting payed. This is not completely true, but the closest I could get.
My 1st wind band pays every member a small amount for each rehearsal and concert. At one point in time it was a normal fee, but they froze the amount some 70 years ago, so now were all get about $17 per concert (Paying amateurs like this is a weird concept by itself, but it's a century old habit and hard to break...)
The other wind band used to pay me, or at least, give a generous cover for expenses. Now I play there for free and in return I can use their tuba

[corbasse]

So...

You're down there right near the capital city of grandfather clocks...

Can somebody explain this to me?

[corbasse]

Thanks for clearing that up, Bloke!

I understand most of the discussions here, but sometimes it gets a bit too local / colloquial for us forners.

[Tom Mason]

Joe Baker wrote:

I always squirm a little at hiring pros from outside the church to "perform", though. Nothing against the pros themselves, just the policy... For those pros who DO share our faith, I don't like the idea of taking them out of their own churches.


Not every congregation has enough players to perform an Easter performance. I admit that I represent a congregation that numbers around 200 per Sunday morning service. I have roughly 6 instrumentalist that I could count on to take a part and practice it for two or three months. I have one (1) that I could trust to hand a part to and them be able to handle it the first time. (I count myself in that group).

What is more to the point is that, like other ministry opportunities, people just don't want to work. I can talk to someone until I'm blue in the face, and still not get them to commit to anything. This attitude is prevelant in the community and I would assume, the entire country. Just like schools, 10 % of the people do 90 % of the work.

As we speak, I am trying to add to our handbell choir. I have 9 faithful members, and 3 or 4 that sorta get there occasionally. As we met last night for our rehearsal, I took the group through a time of naming people in the congregation that we thought needed recruiting. As they listed the candidates, I noted the ones I had already approached. My reaction to everyone listed was that I had already approached them except for 1. (out of 10).

If I, as a music minister, expect to have live wind and string music occasionally in the church, I need to feel free to have professional musicians play. There is the apparent ministry of music itself, but I also see the chance of changing the heart or mind of a musician that comes to my church and is well treated as well as paid.

BTW, I offer to pay my inhouse wind players as well as the normal keyboard staff. The wind players turn down the pay, but that is their decision.

Tom Mason

[ThomasDodd]

BTW, I offer to pay my inhouse wind players as well as the normal keyboard staff. The wind players turn down the pay, but that is their decision.

Good for them. I think they "get" it

[Joe Baker]

Hey Tom.

I hope you understand I'm not saying it's a sin to bring in musicians; I just don't understand the point. Music in the church is a valid and wonderful means of worship. But it's not the main purpose -- nor do I think most people are moved to greater worship by professional musicianship, but rather they just enjoy it. Moreover, if I were in a church like you've described, where the people are unwilling to serve one another, I'd have to seriously question why that is. I don't know that I have the patience to hang around a place like that (please note that I'm not suggesting I'm certain it'd be RIGHT to split -- just that I probably WOULD).

Also, how many churches smaller than a couple hundred can afford to pay their preacher a full-time salary, let alone bring in hired brass and strings ensembles? You may not get beautiful, professional sounding music out of a congregation of a couple hundred, but there's surely SOMEONE who can hold a tune together singing with the piano. Anything beyond that seems like nice-but-not-necessary trimming.

I know you're just earnestly trying to do what you think is best, just like I am. I deeply respect that, and given that God said he desires "compassion, and not a sacrifice", I think it's clear that the willing heart is most important in all of this. And I appreciate the exchange of viewpoints. Even if we don't come any closer to agreeing, we at least each understand the thinking of the other better. So I hope you understand that, even though we disagree, I don't for a moment think you're "doing something wrong".
_________________________________
Joe Baker, who isn't about to criticize someone who's directing choir, instrumental ensembles AND bell choir for 50 clams a week!

[Chuck(G)]

The members in our quintet are playing at their own churches this year. Easter's just too much hassle otherwise.

Probably the most fun I've ever had playing at an Easter gig was for a sunrise service held on a brilliant spring morning on a hilltop. There was a hummingbird feeder at a house nearby--darned if the little critters didn't make a beeline for my shiny tuba bell, flying in an out of it. Lots of adults and kids sneaking peeks and pointing...

At one time in my life, I lived next to an American Orthodox Church. No pews--the congregation stood and all the (probably Russian Orthodox in origin) music was a capella.

Very cool

[Tom Mason]

Joe,

I don't have a problem with your position in any form or fashion. You are right to point out that we can disagree on an issue while still recognizing the need and desire to worship. I would go farther to state that I believe that we probably agree more than disagree when it comes down to the important issues.

I come from an area where the prevailing mentality is that the musical atmosphere has no bearing whatsoever on the total aspect of worship. I battle those who would tell you that music has absolutely no value in the service, and that a person could just go and listen to preaching and get all they need. (we probably have those people everywhere)

BTW, My pay is per service, where rehearsals are counted as a service per day. I get four services a week, but I don't get office time as a service. Either way, it pays for gas, untill this last raise in gas prices.

Tom Mason

[Tuba-G Bass]

My Easter Gig is meeting up with the Moravian Trombone Choir
at 2am Sunday morning, have some breakfast and coffee, and
then pile into vans at 3am and go wake up the congregation
members for the 5:30am Easter Sunrise Service.

It's one of the biggest events of the year for us in the Choir
and harkens back to when the 18th century town of Bethlehem, PA
was woken every morning to the strains of trombone playing.

The trombones even scared off a Indian attack in the 1700's,

Another settlement called Gnaden Huetten further away was not so luckly back then.
Peace

[Lew]

I don't do Easter gigs or Christmas gigs. They are Christian holidays, and I find I can't tolerate the church services.

MA

MA, I appreciate your stance on this. I think one of the best things about NOT being a professional musician is that I'll NEVER find myself in the situation of having to play in support of an organization that I don't support, politically, morally, or religiously. I just don't think I could play music to support worship of a god I don't believe in.

Of course, as a Christian I'm saddened whenever I hear of anyone who has rejected the Christian faith, but I do respect your integrity.
___________________________
Joe Baker, who is glad we live in a place where MSM, MA and I are all allowed to believe such different things.

As a non-Christian, it's not rejecting the Christian faith, just having a different belief.

I have been playing with the Richmond concert band on Easter Sundays for the Monument Avenue Easter parade (and dog Easter bonnet parade). I don't mind playing on Christmas and Easter, even if I'm not paid, because they are not holidays for me and I am happy to let a Christian musician celebrate their holiday rather than having to "work." I used to volunteer at the local hospital on Christmas eve for the same reason.

[Dan Schultz]

Isn't there some sort of tradition on a certain church holiday/saint's birthday to take pets to church for a blessing? I dunno, just spurred a memory in the gray matter...

Quite a worth holiday!

http://www.rockies.net/~spirit/sermons/ ... nimal.html

[MaryAnn]

As a non-Christian, it's not rejecting the Christian faith, just having a different belief.

Thank you for that. It amazes me the assumptions people make if you mention you are not their particular religion. My concept of "God" is considerably more abstract than the concepts found in organized religion. What is funny is I get the completely opposite reaction from my family, who are all hard core Materialists and who think I'm mentally ill because I hold a concept of something behind it all.

MA

[Lew]

...and dog Easter bonnet parade...

' interesting...I've never stumbled across that particular sect of Christianity.

OK, probably technically NOT a part of what Easter is supposed to be about for Christians. Here's a link to some photos.

http://www.citycelebrations.org/easter/schedule.shtml

The pet Easter Bonnet contest is always one of the highlights of the events, if a little strange.

[Joe Baker]

As a non-Christian, it's not rejecting the Christian faith, just having a different belief.

Thank you for that. It amazes me the assumptions people make if you mention you are not their particular religion. My concept of "God" is considerably more abstract than the concepts found in organized religion. What is funny is I get the completely opposite reaction from my family, who are all hard core Materialists and who think I'm mentally ill because I hold a concept of something behind it all.

MA

MA, please don't take that word as the back of my hand. It's just meant to be factual. I, for example, have rejected Hinduism, Buddhism, and a whole bunch of other -isms. We all have to decide what we believe, and reject the rest. As far as my response to someone rejecting Christianity, it just comes down to the fact that, if Christians are right, those who reject Christ face an eternity that will be very bad. Not wanting that to happen to anyone, it makes me sad when someone rejects Christ.

I agree with Bloke that finite minds cannot comprehend an infinite God, but we have enough of Christ portrayed in the Bible that we can make the decision to either "accept" or "reject" that He was God's son, come to take away the sins of mankind. It is part and parcel of the faith that "accepting" Christ is necessary for salvation, and those who "reject" him will not receive salvation.

There are probably people of other faiths that feel exactly the same about me rejecting their faith, and I take that, if anything, as a kind thought -- because it means they care what becomes of me. Of course I think I'm right and they're wrong, or I'd make the same choice they have (and vice versa). So MA (and Lew as well) please understand that it is only love for others that brings that response from me. It is certainly not an assumption that you don't have any belief in any god. Just that you have not believed in Christ as Messiah.
_____________________________________
Joe Baker, who cares about ALL you crazy tuba players!

[MaryAnn]

We all have to decide what we believe, and reject the rest.
.. we can make the decision to either "accept" or "reject"

Joe, I am well aware that you are a caring person.
However, why do you limit people to a black OR white "accept" OR "reject?"

In this infinite realm of creation, I do believe there are other stances.

MA, who does not believe that "God" created everyone only to send most of them to Hell for not following the rules. My "God" is the Essence that Is Love. Love cannot harm.

[Chuck(G)]

MA, who does not believe that "God" created everyone only to send most of them to Hell for not following the rules. My "God" is the Essence that Is Love. Love cannot harm.

After encountering otherwise-sane educated people who believe in crystal power, alien abductions and psychic surgery, magic underwear and the like, I don't think I could believe in any religion that made salvation conditional on what one believed.

[Tubaryan12]

I don't think I could believe in any religion that made salvation conditional on what one believed.

Or for that matter, what one eats, clothes they wear, what days of the week they work, what music they listen too, etc. etc. etc.

and well said MA

[Joe Baker]

I apologize if I offended any of you all. I don't see the wiggle room between "accept" and "reject" in this case, but I learned some time ago that I don't know everything. In any case, my remarks were meant in nothing but kindness, and I'm sorry if anyone took offense.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who thinks maybe we differ about the definition of "reject", but who SURELY doesn't want to argue semantics!

[Joe Baker]

bloke "who thinks that much of Christianity puts a bit too much emphasis on 'deals' "

Mmmm, perhaps some place too much emphasis there, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Christ DID offer a choice -- one that could well be viewed as Him offering us a "deal". I would argue that there's a difference between accepting a "deal" offered by God (and I understand not everyone believes that's the case; I'm speaking of the beliefs of most people who would call themselves Christians) and offering God your own deal.

But I happen to think that "accepting Christ" just to get to heaven isn't really accepting Him. It includes believing who He is and why He came, but also accepting His teachings about how we should live and relate to Him and to our fellow man (and woman, MA ). After all, on at least one occasion Jesus spoke specifically of those who gave food or drink, or visited the sick, or fed the poor, receiving eternal life, but those who do not do these things being condemned. Is that a deal? Yeah, in a way it sounds like one to me.

It seems to me that our definition of terms, again, is at the heart of our disagreement.
___________________________
Joe Baker, who appreciates Sean's patience with this thread and promises not to try to turn the site into Jesus-net.

[MaryAnn]

The last Christian church I attended was a Swedenborgian one.

The phrase that was emphasized in that church was "He loves even the least of them." I think that should be the essence of any religion. I very much like Bloke's pet analogy, and will remember it and use it as an example in the future. I love all animals, even the ones who behave badly.

MA