How good are the Chinese?

[gregsundt]

My previous post moved in another direction. So, does anyone have some experience to share here? I would especially like to hear from current owners, repairmen, product developers/endorsers, and those who have visited the plants.

sidebar... (or maybe not?)
As B&S recedes and as Chinese products improve, the line will "blur" (and, sure) Chinese prices will climb (just as did Yamaha prices).

Since you mentioned it: Are there any Chinese mfrs who have adopted the processes and craftmanship of the "old world" or the top US companies? It seems like they have been very good at copying patterns, but do they hand-build and hand-fit the critical components like bells, pipes, and valves?

I love my 20-year-old Jupiter euph (Taiwanese, I know), but it always seemed to me an exceptional horn, not the norm. Is the Pacific Rim the new Elkhart?

New thread, anyone?

[bort]

You're right, it would be interesting to know the facts.

From the outside, it appears that the Chinese are interested in production rather than innovation. They will build new things if you tell them what to build, but there has to be someone to tell them what to do. Otherwise, they'll just copy what already exists. I don't see it as being any different than the lame "Designed in _____, Made in China" taglines. Just say "Made in China," no one thinks it was designed there.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
How about horns -for example, like the 6/4- with 'dependent' 5th valve from Big Mouth Brass- designed in the USA-made in China.....
Mark

[bort]

Hi-
How about horns -for example, like the 6/4- with 'dependent' 5th valve from Big Mouth Brass- designed in the USA-made in China.....
Mark

Actually, I think that's a good example of it. In the US, a simplified version of the regulations is that if it's not made in the US, it needs to be labeled with the country of manufacture. If it's made in the US, then it doesn't have to be labeled.

When items are labeled as "Designed in US, Made in China," it's just a tactic to still put "USA" on the product. To me, it seems to draw even more attention to the fact that it's not made here. Flip over your iPhone, same thing "Designed by Apple in California, Made in China." Did anyone REALLY think the phone was designed in China?

[gregsundt]

Hi-
How about horns -for example, like the 6/4- with 'dependent' 5th valve from Big Mouth Brass- designed in the USA-made in China.....
Mark

Essentially, that is the question. What about those horns, and all the other pro-quality knockoffs? Eastman by Shires seems to be an uneven brand, and with Shires going under, it won't get better. My experience has been limited, and not always good. Have any of the mfrs adopted the materials and methods that made the originals great, or do they just replicate the dimensions and stamp them out?

[Euphistuba]

I've been playing a 186 clone for the past four years. It's been trouble free. Plays better than the 186 so I'm told by those who have played both. I had minor modifications to the paddles and beyond it's yearly cleaning at Baltimore brass no issues. Great horn for the price. The cases at least from four years ago are adequate for moderate use but gigantic. I understand that has improved somewhat.

For amateur players these horns are a godsend and should help improve playing in community and brass bands here.

[Untersatz]

I think they are very good!

Chinese take out.jpg

[gregsundt]

So, does anyone actually know how these horns are made? It would appear not.

[Wyvern]

So, does anyone actually know how these horns are made? It would appear not.

Ask Neptune, his wife is from Asia and he's been to the factory that builds most of his instruments.

They are made in what looks like the same way as in the west using sheets of brass and soldered. I have a few pictures I will post once back on my computer (now on ipad)

[gregsundt]

Please refer to my original post. I'm trying to find out, from someone who knows the difference, whether there any truly world class horns coming out of China? Do they spin bells, or stamp them? Are any of them assembled by hand? Are the parts available to repair them if needed?

[bort]

I think the overall process is likely very similar -- you make a tuba by making a tuba. But the difference is in the details, starting with the design specs and precision, not to mention all of the research and development. The top-level German brands have decades of development to back up their tuba designs, and know what it takes to build and adjust an instrument. The Chinese brands aren't there right now. Also, the quality of the parts before assembly is different too. Start with better stuff, end with a better product.

Fit and finish has a lot to do with it too. A handmade tuba like an Alexander or Rudy Meinl takes a TON of time to build, put together, adjust, and make it all fit and work perfectly. The Chinese tubas are just put together, without as much attention to detail. My impression isn't that they don't know how to do it (and maybe they would even like to do it?), but time is money, and they can't spend more than x hours building it or they can't keep at the same price point. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but quality vs. price is not accidental...

[Wyvern]

I think the big difference is the only number of skilled technicians at the Chinese factories. They do have some really good engineers there who can do amazing things, but they also have some staff who do not appear to understand what they are doing and I believed do not take enough care.

With every visit I highlight deficiencies and I know the factories are making a real effort to improve. Their enthusiasm to improve is very gratifying and every year they steadily get better. I'm sure in a few years, Chinese made tubas will be quite as good as the best made in Germany.

[MackBrass]

I just brought in 4 different models of trumpets that I will be adding to my line of horns. Yesterday I had a pro player do my testing and evaluation of all 4 models and gave me a huge thumbs up for all of them. When this pro who's name I will not mention here, but I will say currently he plays in a major orchestra got to the trumpet in c, was blown away enought to ask me if he could borrow it to use it for his next audition for a principal chair that is currently open. The horn was not just good but great in his own words and he has decided to use it over his current pro c trumpet that he has had for years. I have said the same thing for a long time, look at Yamaha 30 years ago and you will see where China is going. As long as the current dealers including myself provide feedback on needed changes they are very responsive to making the changes therfore making improvements. As to copies, all manufactures do it and some make them even better than the original it was designed after.

The most unfortunate thing that creates a dark cloud is that there are dealers buying crapy horns and selling them to make a quick buck. These other dealers know very little about what they sell and as long as they continue to buy the garbage, manufacturers in China will continue to make them.

The best example of high quality that is on par with anything coming out of Europe is Wisemann. JinBao is going to follow and continue to improve as I have seen this already taking place over the last 4 years.

As to parts, I have built up a nice stock but found the only thing I have had to send out are some lost screws aand a few broken thumb rings. Parts are easy to get for any horn and they are in a lot of cases interchangable with horn made by other companies.

JMHO

Tom

[Dan Schultz]

I just brought in 4 different models of trumpets that I will be adding to my line of horns. Yesterday I had a pro player do my testing and evaluation of all 4 models and gave me a huge thumbs up for all of them. When this pro who's name I will not mention here, but I will say currently he plays in a major orchestra got to the trumpet in c, was blown away enought to ask me if he could borrow it to use it for his next audition for a principal chair that is currently open. ......

ALL of the Chinese trumpets I've seen to date have had one big flaw... the plastic valve guides are made of a very 'gummy' type of plastic that tends to swell, deform, bend and eventually bind up inside the guide slots. Take one of the guides out of the pistons. If it warps out of shape easily... send the horns back. Test the 'bendability' against a Yamaha guide. If the comparison test results about the same.... perhaps the quality of the Chinese guides has improved.

It's the little things that count! It doesn't take any longer to make things right once the correct materials are selected. Nylon just doesn't get it inside an environment that's 98.6 degrees and 100% humidity. It's gotta be Delrin or other engineered plastic that's firm and doesn't absorb moisture.

By-the-way.... fitting a better guide to these horns is a bit tedious since the locators inside the casings are very shallow. I've tried to trim both Bach and Yamaha guides to fit and it just doesn't work well.

[Dan Schultz]

For the price, this is nitpicking...but if combo stores and piano stores are going to sell this stuff, some of it isn't ready for prime time...

Actually... I welcome the competition as long as they are willing to listen and continue to improve their products.

Had it not been for Datsun, Toyota, and a few others.... we'd be forced to buy crap like GM, Chrysler, and Ford were producing in the 70's.

[bort]

Question -- if the quality and consistency becomes up to Western standards, when will the manufacturer start demanding to put their names on the instruments, and not the importer's name?

[Wyvern]

Question -- if the quality and consistency becomes up to Western standards, when will the manufacturer start demanding to put their names on the instruments, and not the importer's name?

There is no way of telling. I think the Chinese business model is very different from say German manufacturers.

The Chinese manufactured instruments basically come in four categories

1) factory standard catalog items (which are sometimes branded with factory name)
2) modified/improved instruments for specific company (most of Wessex range come in this category)
3) special instruments made for specific company to their own design (Wessex Mighty Midget and all BMB range come into this category)
4) instruments made for established western brand (such as Besson student instruments made by Wisemann)

[hup_d_dup]

... are having our children's school curricula Communized to the Core, and (again: just like all of the sucky countries) we're well on our way down the Marxist path ourselves.

The Common Core was initiated by, and currently is sponsored by, the National Governors Association. The NGA is a Republican majority association (29 R, 21 D). Why would Republican Governors want their children to become Marxists?

(I could have asked why would any governor want their children to become Marxists, but for the sake of the question let's say the Democrats are Marxist dupes and just don't know any better).

And by the way, why is there so much resistance to Common Core on the left? Don't the Marxists know what's good for them?

Hup

[gregsundt]

Gentlemen, thank you. This has finally become the informative and helpful thread that I had hoped for. Especially bloke's industro-political interjections. bloke, say hey to Wes Lebo when you see him, by the way. We don't see much of him in Greenville these days.

[gregsundt]

Mozart last weekend in Spartanburg, Verdi with GSO Friday and Saturday. A rare back-to-back, on his way to somewhere else.