Bloke Buttons vs. MAW buttons

[ASmith]

I can't find anything comparing the two, but curiosity struck me so I figured I would ask. I'm curious about some for my M-W 45SLP. It has the big valves with the heavy buttons, so the valves are kind of heavy and being a rotor guy so it's been an adjustment

[ASmith]

After some talk with a couple of people, the Martin's buttons are aluminum. We all know how brass and aluminum don't react well together, so I think the bloke buttons might be a bit better.

[bort]

After some talk with a couple of people, the Martin's buttons are aluminum. We all know how brass and aluminum don't react well together, so I think the bloke buttons might be a bit better.

Would they have a bad reaction from just being in close proximity to each other?

FWIW, I have no experience with either, but I can't stand the *feel* of aluminum, especially when it isn't brand new. Perhaps Martin's buttons have found a way around that, but to me, I just don't like to touch the stuff!

[Ben]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

This is what was meant by aluminum and brass not playing well. The corrosion occurs slowly over time, but the difference in electrochemical potentials of Al and Zn/Cu are significant.

[bort]

Ah! Eew, yeah, I'd avoid aluminum, too!

[Dan Schultz]

Ah! Eew, yeah, I'd avoid aluminum, too!

The use of aluminum has always been a problem with trumpet/cornet valve stems. However... the simple application of a bit of grease in the threads will eliminate problems.

There was a period when aluminum was used quite extensively in electrical systems. I don't think it's used much these days but a special lubricant at reassembly seems to have resolved corrosion issues.

[joh_tuba]

I agree with TubaTinker. A touch of grease will solve the corrosion issue. Trumpet valve stems made of aluminum DO corrode over time BUT they are in much closer proximity to moisture that will encourage corrosion.

Also, if the MAW buttons are anodized... which I would imagine they are.. that will also limit corrosion.

I would be more concerned with the brittleness of aluminum allowing them to snap off more easily than brass or stainless steel but realistically that's probably not a major problem either. If you are smacking your horn around enough to snap an aluminum button you probably have other maintenance problems anyhow.

Stainless steel is about the same density as brass.. aluminum is notably lighter. I personally would give the MAW buttons a chance. Odds are good they will work fine. If not, Bloke's buttons made of stainless are a VERY smart idea and should be basically bullet proof from the concerns stated above.

[Paul Scott]

Martin's valve buttons are indeed anodized (including the threads). For those not liking the "feel" of aluminum, the MAW buttons are also available with a variety of pearls. Martin offers a nice set for the King 2341 tubas (both the old and new versions) and I've had good experiences with those.

[Lee Stofer]

I would suggest to ASmith that, although finger buttons are nice, there are other considerations that will make more difference in your valveset. In an ITEC article, Joe Sellmansberger alluded to the fact that Meinl-Weston "Big Valves" were an attempt at copying the old York .750" bore valveset, but the Meinl-Weston valves suffered from being heavier than the old York valves, as well as being fitted much more tightly than the old York valves.

I have worked on these horns for years now, and find that if the valves are lapped, if necessary, cleaned to within an inch of their life, re-fitted with Yamaha valve springs and new nylon guides, and lubricated with Hetman #2 piston oil, the valves are much faster, quieter, and generally much more fun to play.

I was originally prejudiced against the 45S-LP F-tubas, because i didn't like the idea of a larger F-tuba, particularly with large, chunky-clunky valves. However, back in about 2003, I took one in on trade, and decided to see if I could make the valves user-friendly. The result was so much improvement that I took it out for my next gig, a brass quintet performance, and I have been a fan of the 45S-LP ever since. BTW, within two weeks, a major symphony player in Atlanta, GA bought that instrument and probably still has it.

Custom finger buttons are fun, and I occasionally will make custom buttons for a customer, but you also need to address the real problem.

[JCalkin]

The Sellmansberger buttons are REALLY LIGHT. Light enough to impress my woodwind colleague (for whom "action" is the holy grail of instrument performance).

I can't imagine the Wilk buttons, even being aluminum, being much lighter. The stainless is stronger, to boot, and the buttons are nicely textured for good "feel" and grip. It's a no-brainer to me.

[Rivercity Tuba]

Joe is an excellent performing tuba player that does beautiful brass work. His concepts and products tend to be very well thought out.

[MackBrass]

I own several pf Joe's mouthpieces and am a converted fan of anything he sells made of stainless steel. Last week I dropped on of my blokepiece three piece mouthpiece's on a concrete floor and thought it was going to be ruined. After inspection, there was no damage. I thought for sure the shank would have suffered but low and behold it was perfect. If this would have happened on a regular mpc, it would not have held up as well so there is something to be said about the materials used.

I guess this is more of a plug for the mpc side than the finger button side but I do like the stainless buttons as well and have a set.

[TubaRay]

Joe is an excellent performing tuba player that does beautiful brass work. His concepts and products tend to be very well thought out.

I agree with Rivercity Tuba. I can't seem to figure out how to put the buttons on my rotary valve tubas, but I own two of his mouthpieces, in different configurations. I'm able to have the effect of the same rim on what are essentially two different mouthpieces.

Despite his TubeNet persona, Joe is quite humble, but his ideas WORK.

[Lee Stofer]

I want to make it perfectly clear that I was not trying to be at all critical of Bloke or Martin Wilk, or of their fine craftsmanship. There are a number of factors involved with the feel and performance of valves, and I think that the original poster should consider that. Yes, buy some valves and finger buttons from these craftsmen, but also have them clean and service the horn, so that you can get the full benefit of the performance enhancers.

I am curious about the changes in weight and feel as offered by these custom parts, and plan to pay both Bloke and Martin a visit at their booths at ITEC this next week. There is a very good chance I'll give them some business, and would encourage others to do the same, as that helps them stay in business.

[ASmith]

I realize that buttons won't solve everything, and I will most likely have the valves lapped like you said Lee once funds become available. I was just curious about the difference more than anything, because Aaron Tindall had a set of the Will buttons for sale and I didn't know anything about them.

[Lee Stofer]

I agree, and yes, definitely an issue with rotors.

A reasonably, good, clean and lubricated rotor turns with almost no force needed when the stop arm is not connected to any linkage, but how many rotors work like that in daily performance? I like to isolate each part of the rotor system and repair as necessary, as it makes for really nice rotor action. If everything else is in good working condition or better, I will re-arc the springs if needed to where there is an approximately 220 degrees, possibly up to about 270 degrees of spring rotation as I compress them in installation. If they are compressed a full 360 degrees the result will feel like truck springs, and if less than 180 degrees the valves will probably not return quickly-enough. This is all generalization, as rotor spring thickness, toughness and materials can vary a lot, which means that trial-and-adjustment is usually in order to maximize the rotor action.